WEBVTT

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Thank you.

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Torrin, that was beautiful.

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And the range and the
scope and just the energy

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of the work that comes from
you, the poet, into the work

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is just palpable.

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So I just want to
thank you for sharing

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both work that was submitted and
then also work that's upcoming.

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I'd like to ask you a few
questions about the newer work.

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You mentioned that you have a
second manuscript that you're

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actively working
toward, and I wondered

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if you have a title
for that manuscript

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or a tentative title.

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The titles that you're
floating around.

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I do.

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The current title
on this manuscript,

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which I'm very much
hoping stays, is Deed.

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- Aha, I like that.

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The one-word title.

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It's a difficult art.

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I'm somewhat dubious of
them most of the time.

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Yeah, me too, but
it says so much to

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just do the one-word
title, but that's great.

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I had a question that
is more maybe a comment,

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and maybe we can talk
a little bit about it.

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I am really inspired
by the way that you

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write about sex and intimacy,
and how violence sometimes

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can often play a part
in those two things.

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How they're separate
together, right?

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And I wondered if
that's something

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that comes very easy for
you or for other people that

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might be trying to incorporate
some of those aspects

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into their writing.

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What do you think about that?

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I think sex is a really, really
hard thing to write about.

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And I think anyone who's
ever been to an open mic

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knows just how easy it is
for someone to do it badly.

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There's always that one guy.

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But I think a big thing
for me is most of my poems

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that are about sex are
also not really about sex.

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And I think there has to
be necessarily something

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more than sex in the poems.

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Just like writing a poem
about joy that is only about

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joy is so, so difficult to do.

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I mean, even Ross
Gay, who I think

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is thought of as like the poet
of joy in our current canon.

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You really dig into those
poems, and most of them

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are about many, many
things other than joy.

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But joy becomes the
thing that kind of

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allows those poems to
move through themselves.

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And I often--

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I think sex connects
to so many things,

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in how we move in
the world, desire

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and the politics
of desirability.

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Often, we move beyond
the bedroom, right?

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There's a really fantastic study
on the failings of empathy,

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and I think it's referenced
in the book Against Empathy.

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So as an autistic writer,
I think a lot about the way

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that we talk about
writing toward empathy,

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as someone who doesn't actually
experience a lot of empathy.

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I think, one, we
often misname empathy

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when we really mean compassion.

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And also, I think there
are some failings.

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So one of the things
that I think is hilarious

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is among the
different things that

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come into statistics around how
we experience empathy is people

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are more likely to
experience empathy

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for people of the same gender,
race, socioeconomic class.

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These things, if we
look at our culture,

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are all pretty
easy to understand

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just like on how society
has structured itself

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and like the hegemony created
through like white cis hetero

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patriarchy.

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But studies also show
that people experience

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less empathy for people
they aren't attracted to,

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and this thought
kept returning as I

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was trying to write about a kind
of politics of desirability.

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Because the way that my body is
like a disabled trans woman's

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body is encountered by a
politic of desirability

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very easily shades
over into the kind

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of disposability
politic that people

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extend onto disabled
bodies, and particularly,

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transfeminine bodies.

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So I don't think I can write
about desire without also

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writing about violence,
without writing

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about the way in
which my body is

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made to be disposable by both
the state and individuals.

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And I also can't
write about desire

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without wanting to write
into the people who

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don't make me feel disposable.

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The ways in which desire
can be a positive thing,

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and how that's often an
extension of community.

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Sorry, that was a
very long answer.

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Oh, but that's what we're
looking for is the long answers

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because that's what it takes.

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These sorts of thoughts
and considerations

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are the things that
go into crafting.

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I hate the word craft
because that's not really--

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just in sort of in birthing,
or that's also not it

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but just in the creation
or being close to the truth

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and being able to bring all
those ideas and thoughts

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and synthesize them in a way
where they are being presented

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to someone in a way where
you're reading one thing.

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But you're reading about
all these other things.

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And I think that that's
part of the comment

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that I made earlier about the
way that your poems expand.

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And because we can't see
the poems on the page,

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how are your poems
normally on the page,

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or that last poem that you
read, what does that look like

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on the page?

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Do you have that?

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Yeah, so I think
my poems tend to go

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kind of all over the place.

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The most recent
book, Deed, tends

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to cleave a little bit more
to the margin of the page,

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more so than Wound From
The Mouth Of A Wound,

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where the poems are kind
of going all over the page,

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though there's
still a bit of that.

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This poem is actually one-- it
took me a long time to figure

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out formally what I wanted to do
with it because it's structured

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around these--

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Sorry, my light is very bright.

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Oh, I see some stanzas, maybe
five or six line stanzas.

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Typically, between
four and five,

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sometimes six-line
stanzas interspaced

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with all of these
monostiches, a monostich

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being a one-line stanza.

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So like, the first
one that occurs,

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and when I made this lane
break it felt very brave to me

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as someone who--

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I consider myself a
coward about my own poems.

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But the first one of those
is a perfect pastoral--

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"I'm sorry" as one line.

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And when I realized
how good that was,

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I started trying to shape
the poem around having

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longer stanzas, and then one
of these bridging monostiches,

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like another, "Kill me.

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Late fall, and the
foothills are ablaze."

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I'm very interested
in the way we

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create meanings
with the line break,

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and the line as an
individual unit of meaning.

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So the kind of puzzle of
this poem for me became,

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how can I create
these pulled-out lines

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that become their
own unit of meaning

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when read alone but then also
were part of the thread of all

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of the rest of it?

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If you've ever been
sewing, and somehow

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the distance of the two sides
of the thread end up mismatched.

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And so in your whip
stitch, you have one thread

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that just sticks out.

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I wanted to kind of do something
with the form of the poem that

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created that shape.

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Wow, that's fascinating.

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Just as a final question,
since we're talking about form,

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can you say a little bit about
why you were drawn to haibun?

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I'm somebody who's very
into tanka and haiku.

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And I actually have
attempted haibun many times,

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but I just haven't been able to
really clear the field in a way

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where I'm like,
this is my haibun.

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But I love the form.

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I love a lot of those
forms and just want

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to know what that
form kind of prompted

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in you to not only
utilize it but then

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also to create this new form.

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I think you called
it the burning.

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Is it the burning
haibun which I found

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really fascinating and lovely.

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And I wondered if you could
just say a little bit more

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about that.

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Yeah, so on one level,
I like the haibun

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because it feels like cheating
because haikai forms, the tanka

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and renga and haiku, they're so
rigorous, especially when you

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get into the more dense
historical requirements

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of like the season word,
the fact that you should not

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be telling the reader
what to think or feel.

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I think they're so
fascinating when you get down

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into that granular level
that I kind of love

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the fact that the haibun lets
you cheat that a little bit

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because you get the prose.

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But you still have to,
at the end of the day,

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write that haiku and
understand what you're doing

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and also be able to
connect those two parts.

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The burning haibun came about,
I was reading a couple of books,

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but primarily, Ocean Vuong's
Night Sky with Exit Wounds.

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And I was particularly drawn
to "Immigrant Haibun," which

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is a haibun, but it's actually
multiple shorter prose

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poems capped off with a haiku.

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And then "Aubade
with Burning City",

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which threads through it little
fragments of the song "White

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Christmas".

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And this got me thinking,
because it's also

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very much the sort
of fragments of song

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being played over the
radio as Saigon burns.

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This got me thinking about
burning and fragmentation.

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At the same time,
as I was really

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enamored with a
multi-part haibun,

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and I ended up kind of trying
to put these two ideas together

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utilizing erasure.

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The first one I did was--

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it was bad.

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It was absolutely terrible
and ran for about five pages.

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So I put that away for a year.

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Eventually, came
back, completely

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changed the topic of it,
and the first burning

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haibun in my book Wound
from the Mouth of a Wound.

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I ended up keeping only one
line from that initial draft,

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and so I think a
lot about this is

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like one of my favorite
moments of radical revision

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because I kept the idea and one
line, which became the opening

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line.

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Yeah, and from there,
I just played around

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with different approaches.

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I figured out at
a certain point,

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it's much smarter to
start from the haiku

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and then write upwards as
opposed to writing downwards,

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which is what I did
the first two times.

00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:19.380 align:middle line:90%
I'm going to have to try that.

00:12:19.380 --> 00:12:22.080 align:middle line:84%
I think I'm somebody
who is like, if I

00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.070 align:middle line:84%
have an idea for something, I
write seven pages toward it.

00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:28.980 align:middle line:84%
And then I spend like two years
trying to filter through it,

00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:30.670 align:middle line:84%
and then I'll end
up with a few lines.

00:12:30.670 --> 00:12:33.660 align:middle line:84%
But then you only
keep that amount,

00:12:33.660 --> 00:12:35.760 align:middle line:84%
but then this other
way is like you're

00:12:35.760 --> 00:12:38.010 align:middle line:84%
more likely to keep these
other things potentially

00:12:38.010 --> 00:12:41.310 align:middle line:84%
that you're building,
versus this other thing,

00:12:41.310 --> 00:12:43.080 align:middle line:90%
but that's fascinating.

00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.060 align:middle line:84%
The one line that you
said that you kept,

00:12:45.060 --> 00:12:47.250 align:middle line:84%
did you read that
during the reading?

00:12:47.250 --> 00:12:49.590 align:middle line:84%
If you didn't, can you read
that or even just repeat it

00:12:49.590 --> 00:12:51.780 align:middle line:90%
because now I'm really curious?

00:12:51.780 --> 00:12:54.810 align:middle line:84%
Yeah, I didn't read it
during this reading,

00:12:54.810 --> 00:12:59.430 align:middle line:84%
but in the very first
burning haibun, the only line

00:12:59.430 --> 00:13:01.830 align:middle line:90%
it kept is the opening one--

00:13:01.830 --> 00:13:05.820 align:middle line:84%
"Once, my mother accused
me of throwing alcohol,

00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:12.770 align:middle line:84%
gasoline on my emotions,"
which it's funny

00:13:12.770 --> 00:13:15.350 align:middle line:90%
because I mentioned--

00:13:15.350 --> 00:13:19.040 align:middle line:84%
actually, I've realized in
two of the poems I read today,

00:13:19.040 --> 00:13:21.080 align:middle line:90%
the way in which poems lie.

00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.890 align:middle line:84%
Poems don't necessarily bear
an allegiance to the truth,

00:13:24.890 --> 00:13:28.430 align:middle line:84%
but that line is 100%
a quote from my mother.

00:13:28.430 --> 00:13:32.630 align:middle line:90%


00:13:32.630 --> 00:13:35.060 align:middle line:84%
I think it's one of the
wildest things in the book.

00:13:35.060 --> 00:13:36.560 align:middle line:84%
It's something my
mother said to me.

00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:38.300 align:middle line:84%
I really love it,
and I love that it's

00:13:38.300 --> 00:13:41.660 align:middle line:84%
just sort of like an
opening to what you

00:13:41.660 --> 00:13:44.330 align:middle line:90%
are going to be experiencing.

00:13:44.330 --> 00:13:48.230 align:middle line:84%
Well, I want to thank you
for spending time with us

00:13:48.230 --> 00:13:50.480 align:middle line:90%
and reading your amazing work.

00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.640 align:middle line:84%
I'm hoping that once
all of this passes,

00:13:52.640 --> 00:13:54.650 align:middle line:84%
we'll be able to
invite you back,

00:13:54.650 --> 00:13:59.870 align:middle line:84%
and we can host you
in person in Tucson,

00:13:59.870 --> 00:14:02.850 align:middle line:84%
but it was just beautiful
to hear your work.

00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:05.360 align:middle line:84%
And I wish you the
best on your next book

00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.470 align:middle line:84%
and make sure, everyone,
if you have an opportunity,

00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:12.590 align:middle line:84%
to pick up Torrin's
first book Wound

00:14:12.590 --> 00:14:13.820 align:middle line:90%
from the Mouth of a Wound.

00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:17.450 align:middle line:90%
And yes, there's the book.

00:14:17.450 --> 00:14:22.130 align:middle line:84%
We'll also be on the lookout
for your second book, Deed,

00:14:22.130 --> 00:14:24.740 align:middle line:84%
which fingers crossed,
we'll be able to read soon.

00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:27.380 align:middle line:84%
So gracias, Torrin,
it was really

00:14:27.380 --> 00:14:29.570 align:middle line:90%
great to spend time with you.

00:14:29.570 --> 00:14:30.880 align:middle line:90%
Awesome.

00:14:30.880 --> 00:14:33.175 align:middle line:90%
OK, have a good night.

00:14:33.175 --> 00:14:36.000 align:middle line:90%