WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.320 align:middle line:90% 00:00:03.320 --> 00:00:05.270 align:middle line:90% Dwayne, you're a genius. 00:00:05.270 --> 00:00:08.920 align:middle line:90% 00:00:08.920 --> 00:00:09.420 align:middle line:90% Completely-- 00:00:09.420 --> 00:00:10.540 align:middle line:90% Oh, thank you. 00:00:10.540 --> 00:00:12.730 align:middle line:90% Seriously. 00:00:12.730 --> 00:00:17.380 align:middle line:90% Really blown away. 00:00:17.380 --> 00:00:18.990 align:middle line:84% I've done a little bit of theater. 00:00:18.990 --> 00:00:22.470 align:middle line:84% I say a little bit because it's tricky, 00:00:22.470 --> 00:00:25.470 align:middle line:84% but this performance, and the way 00:00:25.470 --> 00:00:30.870 align:middle line:84% that you've kind of tapped into it in a way that just left 00:00:30.870 --> 00:00:34.290 align:middle line:84% me just completely engaged from the moment you began speaking, 00:00:34.290 --> 00:00:35.940 align:middle line:90% and that's no lie. 00:00:35.940 --> 00:00:39.670 align:middle line:84% So I want to ask you a few questions about it, 00:00:39.670 --> 00:00:41.970 align:middle line:84% but I also want to hear from Joe, 00:00:41.970 --> 00:00:44.575 align:middle line:84% because I'm sure Joe has some thoughts about what he heard, 00:00:44.575 --> 00:00:45.075 align:middle line:90% too. 00:00:45.075 --> 00:00:47.790 align:middle line:90% 00:00:47.790 --> 00:00:51.990 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I mean, the way you just-- it's always real. 00:00:51.990 --> 00:00:58.820 align:middle line:84% It-- part of me is like, I don't want to go back to that place, 00:00:58.820 --> 00:01:00.490 align:middle line:84% but every time you take me there, 00:01:00.490 --> 00:01:06.080 align:middle line:84% I see something about my 10 plus years that I didn't before. 00:01:06.080 --> 00:01:13.350 align:middle line:84% And something else that I'm just appreciative for. 00:01:13.350 --> 00:01:18.130 align:middle line:90% And, you know, it-- 00:01:18.130 --> 00:01:25.450 align:middle line:84% there were definitely some parts that spoke to me 00:01:25.450 --> 00:01:28.840 align:middle line:90% more than others, but it just-- 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:33.630 align:middle line:84% you have a way of shining a light on things 00:01:33.630 --> 00:01:38.110 align:middle line:84% that folks who've done time didn't even 00:01:38.110 --> 00:01:41.100 align:middle line:84% know that they were going through. 00:01:41.100 --> 00:01:42.640 align:middle line:90% And so I'm just-- 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:44.424 align:middle line:90% I'm so thankful for you. 00:01:44.424 --> 00:01:45.880 align:middle line:84% Yeah, no, man, I appreciate that. 00:01:45.880 --> 00:01:49.960 align:middle line:84% This joint is interesting because, y'all saw 20 minutes 00:01:49.960 --> 00:01:51.820 align:middle line:90% of a 75 minute show. 00:01:51.820 --> 00:01:55.060 align:middle line:84% And one of the challenges is always 00:01:55.060 --> 00:01:59.827 align:middle line:84% when you reveal a little bit, you're like, yo, does it play? 00:01:59.827 --> 00:02:01.660 align:middle line:84% And then also-- and some of the other pieces 00:02:01.660 --> 00:02:04.930 align:middle line:84% that you didn't see, like, this is kind of like my virtual set. 00:02:04.930 --> 00:02:06.250 align:middle line:90% You got the Redaction print. 00:02:06.250 --> 00:02:11.050 align:middle line:84% But this is a handmade paper that I made for my homies, 00:02:11.050 --> 00:02:12.564 align:middle line:90% they sent me their clothes. 00:02:12.564 --> 00:02:15.340 align:middle line:90% And you know this, Joe. 00:02:15.340 --> 00:02:17.500 align:middle line:84% You get the sweatpants, man, and at first, they 00:02:17.500 --> 00:02:19.660 align:middle line:84% start out as like, what you wear to look fly. 00:02:19.660 --> 00:02:21.070 align:middle line:90% Then you sleeping in them. 00:02:21.070 --> 00:02:24.700 align:middle line:84% And then you working out in them, and they got holes 00:02:24.700 --> 00:02:27.580 align:middle line:84% and the kind of wear and tear that nothing on the outside 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:28.240 align:middle line:90% ever sees. 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:30.850 align:middle line:90% And I had my boy send me this. 00:02:30.850 --> 00:02:33.400 align:middle line:84% And a lot of the cats was like-- they were still in prison, 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:37.000 align:middle line:84% and I made paper out of it, handmade paper, 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:40.630 align:middle line:84% with the intention of wanting them to exist on the outside. 00:02:40.630 --> 00:02:42.430 align:middle line:84% Yeah, and then, the rest of the show, 00:02:42.430 --> 00:02:44.800 align:middle line:84% you'll see, I tell a story about representing a few guys 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:47.050 align:middle line:84% and dudes that did time, when they're getting them out 00:02:47.050 --> 00:02:47.710 align:middle line:90% on parole. 00:02:47.710 --> 00:02:51.370 align:middle line:84% But the thing is, I think I've returned to it in the same way. 00:02:51.370 --> 00:02:53.050 align:middle line:84% And working on this piece has been 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:58.840 align:middle line:84% sort of my bid to say, how do you make the poetry matter? 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:02.880 align:middle line:84% But then also, how do you make it communicate with people 00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:04.440 align:middle line:90% on both sides of the fence? 00:03:04.440 --> 00:03:06.810 align:middle line:84% Because sometimes, you send a book of poems in, 00:03:06.810 --> 00:03:09.420 align:middle line:84% and they like, I don't know what the poems mean. 00:03:09.420 --> 00:03:11.190 align:middle line:84% Like, I don't know how to read poetry. 00:03:11.190 --> 00:03:13.650 align:middle line:84% And so the idea is, this is my bid to say, 00:03:13.650 --> 00:03:15.580 align:middle line:84% I bet I can make you dig some poetry, 00:03:15.580 --> 00:03:17.670 align:middle line:84% and I bet I can make you think about how 00:03:17.670 --> 00:03:19.140 align:middle line:90% it reflects experience. 00:03:19.140 --> 00:03:20.640 align:middle line:90% So I appreciate you'll-- 00:03:20.640 --> 00:03:22.890 align:middle line:84% I appreciate all the folks watching this for a minute, 00:03:22.890 --> 00:03:24.990 align:middle line:84% and I hope at some point, you'll be 00:03:24.990 --> 00:03:26.868 align:middle line:84% able to see the whole show, because-- 00:03:26.868 --> 00:03:28.410 align:middle line:84% yeah, I like to think it's a journey. 00:03:28.410 --> 00:03:33.880 align:middle line:84% I mean, 75 minutes on your feet is serious. 00:03:33.880 --> 00:03:37.450 align:middle line:90% Does it have a title, and when-- 00:03:37.450 --> 00:03:38.620 align:middle line:90% when do we see it? 00:03:38.620 --> 00:03:44.740 align:middle line:84% Like, when-- I don't know, I'm really excited about this 00:03:44.740 --> 00:03:46.010 align:middle line:90% for a number of reasons. 00:03:46.010 --> 00:03:47.380 align:middle line:90% But I think-- 00:03:47.380 --> 00:03:50.450 align:middle line:84% I want to know the title, when can we see it? 00:03:50.450 --> 00:03:52.600 align:middle line:84% And I also want to know how you landed on that. 00:03:52.600 --> 00:03:54.600 align:middle line:84% I think that that's something really interesting 00:03:54.600 --> 00:03:57.670 align:middle line:84% where you said, it's necessary at this point. 00:03:57.670 --> 00:04:00.280 align:middle line:84% How do you get more and more people engaged, right? 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:03.040 align:middle line:84% And you're doing more of a direct address. 00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:04.660 align:middle line:90% But how did you even land there? 00:04:04.660 --> 00:04:07.550 align:middle line:84% Because some people are like, oh, maybe if I make a crown of, 00:04:07.550 --> 00:04:10.300 align:middle line:84% you know-- what if I do this on the page? 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:12.430 align:middle line:90% But you're breaking the wall. 00:04:12.430 --> 00:04:14.170 align:middle line:90% And I just-- 00:04:14.170 --> 00:04:16.649 align:middle line:90% Yeah, tell me about it. 00:04:16.649 --> 00:04:18.269 align:middle line:84% Yeah, no, so it's called "Felon-- 00:04:18.269 --> 00:04:21.000 align:middle line:90% An American Washi Tale." 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:22.710 align:middle line:84% And it's called washi tale because washi 00:04:22.710 --> 00:04:24.390 align:middle line:84% is sort of the handmade Japanese paper, 00:04:24.390 --> 00:04:26.900 align:middle line:84% and I got to collaboration with a number of people. 00:04:26.900 --> 00:04:31.110 align:middle line:84% So Titus Kaphar, to Ruth Lignen, to Koyoko Ibe, 00:04:31.110 --> 00:04:33.330 align:middle line:90% and Elise Thoron is my director. 00:04:33.330 --> 00:04:36.720 align:middle line:84% And so yeah, that's the full title was "Felon-- 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:38.040 align:middle line:90% An American Washi Tale." 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.403 align:middle line:84% This idea that in Japanese culture-- 00:04:41.403 --> 00:04:43.320 align:middle line:84% one element of Japanese culture is this notion 00:04:43.320 --> 00:04:47.220 align:middle line:84% that handmade paper captures the essence of people. 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:49.570 align:middle line:84% And it's almost-- it seems hokey to say it, 00:04:49.570 --> 00:04:51.450 align:middle line:84% but it's almost like a spiritual practice, 00:04:51.450 --> 00:04:54.000 align:middle line:90% and what it means to recycle. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.490 align:middle line:84% Turning their clothes into paper is a way 00:04:56.490 --> 00:04:58.650 align:middle line:84% to allow the paper to embody some 00:04:58.650 --> 00:05:03.150 align:middle line:84% of who they are in the world, and it has a physicality to it. 00:05:03.150 --> 00:05:06.690 align:middle line:90% So it's in development now. 00:05:06.690 --> 00:05:10.740 align:middle line:84% I'm going to do a prison tour, 20 states, 20 cities, 60 00:05:10.740 --> 00:05:11.520 align:middle line:90% prisons. 00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:15.060 align:middle line:84% And the idea really is to use that-- oh, yeah, definitely. 00:05:15.060 --> 00:05:15.930 align:middle line:90% Definitely Arizona. 00:05:15.930 --> 00:05:20.580 align:middle line:84% You know, and ideas to use that as a way to expose folks 00:05:20.580 --> 00:05:22.210 align:middle line:90% to the work that I'm doing. 00:05:22.210 --> 00:05:24.644 align:middle line:84% But I think also, as a way to just be like-- you know, 00:05:24.644 --> 00:05:27.930 align:middle line:84% sometimes you just need a chance to say that this thing matters 00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:29.313 align:middle line:90% in the world. 00:05:29.313 --> 00:05:30.480 align:middle line:90% And so this is part of that. 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.630 align:middle line:84% This is part of saying, this thing really, really 00:05:33.630 --> 00:05:36.232 align:middle line:90% matters in the world. 00:05:36.232 --> 00:05:37.440 align:middle line:90% So as soon as COVID is over-- 00:05:37.440 --> 00:05:39.023 align:middle line:84% I mean, right now I've been doing it-- 00:05:39.023 --> 00:05:42.087 align:middle line:84% I've been doing it on Zoom, I've been doing it 00:05:42.087 --> 00:05:43.920 align:middle line:84% for different audiences, different colleges. 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.030 align:middle line:84% Sweeps of it, not the whole thing. 00:05:46.030 --> 00:05:48.510 align:middle line:84% And soon as we figure out COVID-- 00:05:48.510 --> 00:05:51.720 align:middle line:84% I mean, right now I'm getting it in my head and in my heart, 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.230 align:middle line:84% so that I could get on the stage in August, 00:05:55.230 --> 00:05:57.060 align:middle line:84% and start working on it on the stage. 00:05:57.060 --> 00:06:00.090 align:middle line:84% It's actually-- it's both the physicality of the paper, 00:06:00.090 --> 00:06:06.060 align:middle line:84% but there's also the physicality of one memorizing things. 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:09.420 align:middle line:84% And then also, the physicality of how do you move in space? 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:13.200 align:middle line:84% And how do you become a conduit for-- 00:06:13.200 --> 00:06:14.190 align:middle line:90% everything is new, man. 00:06:14.190 --> 00:06:15.690 align:middle line:84% Like, you don't even know how you're 00:06:15.690 --> 00:06:16.898 align:middle line:90% going to feel when you start. 00:06:16.898 --> 00:06:19.230 align:middle line:84% And then you get into it, and something that hooks you, 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:20.010 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:06:20.010 --> 00:06:23.580 align:middle line:84% And it's that interplay with words, emotions, and ideas, 00:06:23.580 --> 00:06:28.450 align:middle line:84% that I think comes from being responsive to the audience. 00:06:28.450 --> 00:06:30.670 align:middle line:90% So yeah, man, I'm looking-- 00:06:30.670 --> 00:06:33.530 align:middle line:84% if COVID wouldn't have happened, I mean, 00:06:33.530 --> 00:06:36.200 align:middle line:84% that's what I would be performing next week 00:06:36.200 --> 00:06:38.740 align:middle line:84% or next month when I came to Arizona. 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:39.320 align:middle line:90% But, yeah. 00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:42.000 align:middle line:90% 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:43.535 align:middle line:90% I'm speechless. 00:06:43.535 --> 00:06:44.910 align:middle line:84% I know that you had said that you 00:06:44.910 --> 00:06:48.514 align:middle line:84% were going to be doing this, and I was like, OK, cool. 00:06:48.514 --> 00:06:51.660 align:middle line:84% But I was like, yeah, whatever, let's do it. 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:55.890 align:middle line:84% But you started reading, and I just was quiet, 00:06:55.890 --> 00:06:59.460 align:middle line:90% and I was there with you and-- 00:06:59.460 --> 00:07:03.540 align:middle line:84% I have family, lots of family that have been incarcerated 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:04.260 align:middle line:90% for a long time. 00:07:04.260 --> 00:07:06.010 align:middle line:84% It brought me back to those relationships, 00:07:06.010 --> 00:07:07.830 align:middle line:84% and the things that-- the stories 00:07:07.830 --> 00:07:11.310 align:middle line:84% that they came out and sometimes told. 00:07:11.310 --> 00:07:13.170 align:middle line:84% It just brought me back to that place, 00:07:13.170 --> 00:07:14.880 align:middle line:84% and it also was just so visceral. 00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:18.120 align:middle line:84% Because, like you said, a lot of performance and acting 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:22.290 align:middle line:84% is in the body, so there's a lot of somatic. 00:07:22.290 --> 00:07:27.000 align:middle line:84% You just go in into a different plane of the creative process, 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.120 align:middle line:90% and I'm just in awe-- 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.936 align:middle line:84% in awe, and thankful that you're able to kind of-- 00:07:33.936 --> 00:07:35.910 align:middle line:84% I'm in awe of just so many things. 00:07:35.910 --> 00:07:38.070 align:middle line:84% Sorry, I can't even talk right now because I was so 00:07:38.070 --> 00:07:38.862 align:middle line:90% blown away by that. 00:07:38.862 --> 00:07:42.330 align:middle line:84% But I want to know a little bit more, if you could share, 00:07:42.330 --> 00:07:44.460 align:middle line:84% about how the project even began. 00:07:44.460 --> 00:07:46.800 align:middle line:84% I think we've been working on this-- 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:49.380 align:middle line:84% I came in a little bit later at the Poetry Center, 00:07:49.380 --> 00:07:53.490 align:middle line:84% and you had this vision that you brought to Tyler Meier who's 00:07:53.490 --> 00:07:56.700 align:middle line:84% the executive director, and later, Kima Jones 00:07:56.700 --> 00:07:57.660 align:middle line:90% became involved. 00:07:57.660 --> 00:08:00.060 align:middle line:84% And I just want to know if you could share a little bit 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:01.560 align:middle line:90% about how that vision-- 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.620 align:middle line:84% you're a visionary, you had this vision, this idea, 00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:06.090 align:middle line:90% and you made it happen. 00:08:06.090 --> 00:08:09.400 align:middle line:84% And I don't know if you could share a bit about that? 00:08:09.400 --> 00:08:12.580 align:middle line:84% Yeah, well, I guess it's two things. 00:08:12.580 --> 00:08:14.460 align:middle line:84% Really, I mean, Tyler was the one who 00:08:14.460 --> 00:08:15.870 align:middle line:90% conceptualized the whole thing. 00:08:15.870 --> 00:08:16.950 align:middle line:90% Oh, OK. 00:08:16.950 --> 00:08:19.020 align:middle line:90% Yeah, this was all on Tyler. 00:08:19.020 --> 00:08:21.630 align:middle line:84% And, I mean, if we're talking about the partnership 00:08:21.630 --> 00:08:23.860 align:middle line:84% between me and Arizona Poetry Center-- 00:08:23.860 --> 00:08:25.200 align:middle line:90% Yeah, the Art For Justice, yeah. 00:08:25.200 --> 00:08:27.000 align:middle line:84% Yeah, that was-- like, Tyler was already-- 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.250 align:middle line:84% he was already tapped in, and he was already applying. 00:08:29.250 --> 00:08:31.170 align:middle line:84% And my thing was just, like-- and so at first, 00:08:31.170 --> 00:08:32.610 align:middle line:84% though, the one thing I did have was, 00:08:32.610 --> 00:08:33.539 align:middle line:90% he had this list of writers. 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:35.100 align:middle line:84% And I was like, wait, no, you got to be funky with it. 00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:37.100 align:middle line:84% And you want to get a mixture of some folks that 00:08:37.100 --> 00:08:39.600 align:middle line:84% might have direct experience inside, and it's not many of us 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:40.169 align:middle line:90% anyway. 00:08:40.169 --> 00:08:42.690 align:middle line:84% But you think of some of the folks involved, 00:08:42.690 --> 00:08:46.115 align:middle line:84% like [? Tongo Eisen-Martin ?] who-- 00:08:46.115 --> 00:08:48.240 align:middle line:84% he's taught in prisons, and he's done a lot of work 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.830 align:middle line:90% in the community. 00:08:50.830 --> 00:08:53.370 align:middle line:84% But then you think of Randall Horton who's been locked up. 00:08:53.370 --> 00:08:54.960 align:middle line:84% And you think about-- but then, what 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:56.880 align:middle line:84% happens with like prison and incarceration, 00:08:56.880 --> 00:08:58.740 align:middle line:84% it's even when if it's in our work, 00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:04.170 align:middle line:84% we begin to characterize people in certain ways that sometimes 00:09:04.170 --> 00:09:06.790 align:middle line:84% doesn't expose the full breadth of what we care about. 00:09:06.790 --> 00:09:08.790 align:middle line:84% So you take somebody like Natalie Diaz 00:09:08.790 --> 00:09:10.882 align:middle line:84% who's thought about this a lot, and who's 00:09:10.882 --> 00:09:12.840 align:middle line:84% had family members that have been incarcerated. 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:17.107 align:middle line:84% And it's in the work, but people tend to stereotype folks. 00:09:17.107 --> 00:09:18.690 align:middle line:84% Like, I'm publishing one of her pieces 00:09:18.690 --> 00:09:21.300 align:middle line:84% in the New York Times Magazine, and it's a love poem. 00:09:21.300 --> 00:09:23.130 align:middle line:84% And it's not to say that she doesn't write political verse, 00:09:23.130 --> 00:09:23.760 align:middle line:90% too. 00:09:23.760 --> 00:09:25.740 align:middle line:84% But it's say that we need love poems. 00:09:25.740 --> 00:09:28.110 align:middle line:84% And that we need to try to recognize 00:09:28.110 --> 00:09:29.380 align:middle line:90% the capaciousness of folks. 00:09:29.380 --> 00:09:31.260 align:middle line:84% And so I was like, you know, what 00:09:31.260 --> 00:09:35.760 align:middle line:84% we need to do is put the usual suspects-- 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:37.593 align:middle line:90% people like me, right? 00:09:37.593 --> 00:09:39.510 align:middle line:84% People like John Murillo, people like Randall. 00:09:39.510 --> 00:09:43.620 align:middle line:84% But then, how do you pull other folks in, though? 00:09:43.620 --> 00:09:45.510 align:middle line:84% Who you don't even know how this experience, 00:09:45.510 --> 00:09:47.070 align:middle line:84% but I know because we're friends. 00:09:47.070 --> 00:09:50.100 align:middle line:84% And I know that their work hasn't touched it. 00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:51.360 align:middle line:90% Like Nicole Sealey. 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:53.520 align:middle line:84% Or Nikky Finney, who was like, I don't know 00:09:53.520 --> 00:09:55.390 align:middle line:90% what she has to do with prison. 00:09:55.390 --> 00:09:57.748 align:middle line:84% But she is a contemporary American poet who 00:09:57.748 --> 00:09:59.040 align:middle line:90% should be talking about prison. 00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:01.050 align:middle line:90% So then how do you bring her in? 00:10:01.050 --> 00:10:04.110 align:middle line:84% And, you know, it's been a dope project, 00:10:04.110 --> 00:10:09.190 align:middle line:84% but I think it's also like a struggle. 00:10:09.190 --> 00:10:11.610 align:middle line:84% It's 2.4 or so million people in prison, 00:10:11.610 --> 00:10:13.950 align:middle line:84% you still have people who can't get jobs because they've 00:10:13.950 --> 00:10:14.760 align:middle line:90% been incarcerated. 00:10:14.760 --> 00:10:17.040 align:middle line:84% You still have folks who get denied 00:10:17.040 --> 00:10:19.980 align:middle line:84% all kinds of opportunities, from being a barber, 00:10:19.980 --> 00:10:25.170 align:middle line:84% to being a nurse, to going to law school, 00:10:25.170 --> 00:10:26.320 align:middle line:90% to going to medical school. 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:29.670 align:middle line:84% I mean, people still have many career options blocked. 00:10:29.670 --> 00:10:32.470 align:middle line:84% People still get looked at askance in their communities. 00:10:32.470 --> 00:10:34.770 align:middle line:84% And so asking contemporary writers about this-- 00:10:34.770 --> 00:10:36.990 align:middle line:84% I was serious about it in the sense 00:10:36.990 --> 00:10:41.400 align:middle line:84% that, if we're literary citizens and this truly matters, 00:10:41.400 --> 00:10:43.710 align:middle line:84% then our voices should be on this issue. 00:10:43.710 --> 00:10:45.780 align:middle line:84% And this became a project and an opportunity 00:10:45.780 --> 00:10:47.680 align:middle line:90% to put our voices on the issue. 00:10:47.680 --> 00:10:49.440 align:middle line:84% And a lot of writers, they already do it. 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:51.210 align:middle line:84% You know, writers who were involved with this project, 00:10:51.210 --> 00:10:53.502 align:middle line:84% and writers who couldn't be involved with this project. 00:10:53.502 --> 00:10:59.750 align:middle line:84% But this project, I do think, got some work out of people 00:10:59.750 --> 00:11:02.810 align:middle line:84% who just wouldn't have written the poems they wrote. 00:11:02.810 --> 00:11:04.340 align:middle line:84% And to say, look, and we're going 00:11:04.340 --> 00:11:08.090 align:middle line:84% to help facilitate you going inside of a prison. 00:11:08.090 --> 00:11:10.616 align:middle line:90% I mean, I think that it was-- 00:11:10.616 --> 00:11:13.080 align:middle line:84% you know, Joe, no, prison is a lot of things, man. 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:20.190 align:middle line:84% It's sexist, hypermasculine, it's homophobic, 00:11:20.190 --> 00:11:22.360 align:middle line:90% it's fucking frightening. 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.620 align:middle line:84% And if you want prison to not be some of those things, 00:11:25.620 --> 00:11:27.500 align:middle line:90% you've got to show up. 00:11:27.500 --> 00:11:32.530 align:middle line:84% And sometimes there's not enough hope in prison. 00:11:32.530 --> 00:11:35.730 align:middle line:84% And so asking people to show up is asking for prisoners 00:11:35.730 --> 00:11:38.650 align:middle line:90% to be more than what they are. 00:11:38.650 --> 00:11:41.827 align:middle line:84% And once we demand that they be more than what they are, 00:11:41.827 --> 00:11:43.410 align:middle line:84% then I think we're demanding that they 00:11:43.410 --> 00:11:45.810 align:middle line:84% be conduits for freedom, as opposed 00:11:45.810 --> 00:11:47.550 align:middle line:90% to conduits for more suffering. 00:11:47.550 --> 00:11:50.550 align:middle line:84% And I mean both freedom in a literal sense, 00:11:50.550 --> 00:11:57.470 align:middle line:84% but also freedom and a more efflorescence. 00:11:57.470 --> 00:12:00.320 align:middle line:90% 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:05.480 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I think-- thank you for sharing a bit about how 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:06.740 align:middle line:90% that kind of came to be. 00:12:06.740 --> 00:12:11.930 align:middle line:84% And Tyler Meier, ED of the Poetry Center, 00:12:11.930 --> 00:12:13.760 align:middle line:84% we all work very closely with, is 00:12:13.760 --> 00:12:15.470 align:middle line:84% really great at sort of conceiving 00:12:15.470 --> 00:12:16.710 align:middle line:90% these really big ideas. 00:12:16.710 --> 00:12:18.320 align:middle line:90% So thank you for sharing that. 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.540 align:middle line:84% He had some of those things there. 00:12:20.540 --> 00:12:25.610 align:middle line:84% I think that we are now moving into a space 00:12:25.610 --> 00:12:28.940 align:middle line:84% where we're hoping to create an anthology of the work. 00:12:28.940 --> 00:12:32.030 align:middle line:84% We're hoping to create something that 00:12:32.030 --> 00:12:38.030 align:middle line:84% will be used by educators, abolitionists, poets, people 00:12:38.030 --> 00:12:40.370 align:middle line:90% who are already on the ground. 00:12:40.370 --> 00:12:44.330 align:middle line:84% We're hoping to kind of spread just a wide reach. 00:12:44.330 --> 00:12:46.310 align:middle line:90% We're hoping, right? 00:12:46.310 --> 00:12:49.385 align:middle line:84% And I just want to sort of touch base with you about, 00:12:49.385 --> 00:12:51.530 align:middle line:84% what are your hopes for the anthology? 00:12:51.530 --> 00:12:55.400 align:middle line:84% We've talked about it, but just a signal to people, 00:12:55.400 --> 00:12:56.870 align:middle line:90% of what we're hoping-- 00:12:56.870 --> 00:12:59.240 align:middle line:84% I mean, the truth is that, the reason why anthologies 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.770 align:middle line:90% are precious is because-- 00:13:01.770 --> 00:13:06.000 align:middle line:84% like, I wasn't going to have Robert Hayden, Lucille Clifton, 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:10.650 align:middle line:84% Sonia Sanchez, Langston Hughes, Amiri Baraka. 00:13:10.650 --> 00:13:12.150 align:middle line:84% You know, I wasn't going to have all 00:13:12.150 --> 00:13:15.720 align:middle line:84% of those folks in the cell with me at the same time. 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:19.570 align:middle line:84% I couldn't afford five, six, seven, ten poetry books. 00:13:19.570 --> 00:13:22.580 align:middle line:84% And so the anthology becomes a vehicle and a mechanism 00:13:22.580 --> 00:13:26.630 align:middle line:84% to get more voices in one space at one time. 00:13:26.630 --> 00:13:29.330 align:middle line:84% It becomes a way to introduce folks to the names 00:13:29.330 --> 00:13:32.411 align:middle line:84% they should know, and that's how I became a poet. 00:13:32.411 --> 00:13:34.640 align:middle line:84% It wasn't just that I had a poetry book, 00:13:34.640 --> 00:13:36.380 align:middle line:84% it was that I had a poetry book that 00:13:36.380 --> 00:13:39.560 align:middle line:84% introduced me to a wide, wide range of writers. 00:13:39.560 --> 00:13:41.120 align:middle line:90% I mean, some of the writers-- 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.970 align:middle line:84% I could just flip through and literally-- 00:13:43.970 --> 00:13:47.960 align:middle line:84% I could flip through it and be like, oh, man, Arna Bontemps. 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:50.030 align:middle line:84% Yeah, that's Langston Hughes, homie. 00:13:50.030 --> 00:13:52.280 align:middle line:90% He actually wrote an anthology-- 00:13:52.280 --> 00:13:54.500 align:middle line:84% I think he co-edited it with Hughes. 00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:55.670 align:middle line:90% Oh, Countee Cullen. 00:13:55.670 --> 00:13:57.320 align:middle line:90% OK, I remember this. 00:13:57.320 --> 00:13:59.165 align:middle line:90% I remember "Yet Do I Marvel." 00:13:59.165 --> 00:14:01.790 align:middle line:90% 00:14:01.790 --> 00:14:03.830 align:middle line:84% "Yet Do I Marvel," this is what he say-- 00:14:03.830 --> 00:14:07.580 align:middle line:90% this brilliant thing to make a-- 00:14:07.580 --> 00:14:08.630 align:middle line:90% wait, let me see. 00:14:08.630 --> 00:14:12.020 align:middle line:84% He says, "Yet do I marvel at this curious thing-- 00:14:12.020 --> 00:14:15.530 align:middle line:84% To make a Black poet, and bid him sing." 00:14:15.530 --> 00:14:18.890 align:middle line:84% And those lines have been in my head for a long time. 00:14:18.890 --> 00:14:21.560 align:middle line:84% Sterling Brown, I could just flip through this and know. 00:14:21.560 --> 00:14:24.320 align:middle line:84% Frank Marshall, nobody ever talks about Frank Marshall. 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:28.820 align:middle line:84% Black poet, born in 1905, writing at the turn 00:14:28.820 --> 00:14:30.030 align:middle line:90% of the 20th century. 00:14:30.030 --> 00:14:31.670 align:middle line:90% People don't talk about him. 00:14:31.670 --> 00:14:34.850 align:middle line:84% So it's like I met all of these folks, Ray Durem, 00:14:34.850 --> 00:14:37.520 align:middle line:84% voices that have in a way been forgotten. 00:14:37.520 --> 00:14:38.930 align:middle line:90% Gwendolyn Brooks. 00:14:38.930 --> 00:14:41.930 align:middle line:84% And those voices turned me into a poet. 00:14:41.930 --> 00:14:44.140 align:middle line:84% And a lot of these folks, you wouldn't even-- 00:14:44.140 --> 00:14:45.890 align:middle line:84% they not going to be taught in classrooms, 00:14:45.890 --> 00:14:47.190 align:middle line:84% you're not going to run into them. 00:14:47.190 --> 00:14:49.482 align:middle line:84% You're not going to find their books in the bookstores. 00:14:49.482 --> 00:14:51.170 align:middle line:84% But all of these people gave me a sense 00:14:51.170 --> 00:14:54.870 align:middle line:84% of how I might become a poet and a writer. 00:14:54.870 --> 00:14:57.950 align:middle line:84% And so that's the power of an anthology. 00:14:57.950 --> 00:14:59.570 align:middle line:90% And that's what we're producing. 00:14:59.570 --> 00:15:01.160 align:middle line:90% June Jordan, Larry Neal. 00:15:01.160 --> 00:15:04.303 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is a veritable who's who 00:15:04.303 --> 00:15:06.470 align:middle line:84% in the Black literary landscape that you should just 00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:07.520 align:middle line:90% know about. 00:15:07.520 --> 00:15:08.690 align:middle line:90% And that's what we're doing. 00:15:08.690 --> 00:15:11.870 align:middle line:84% You should not be a contemporary writer in prison or out, 00:15:11.870 --> 00:15:13.790 align:middle line:84% and not know who Nikky Finney is. 00:15:13.790 --> 00:15:15.905 align:middle line:90% Not know who Patricia Smith is. 00:15:15.905 --> 00:15:17.300 align:middle line:90% Not know who John Murillo is. 00:15:17.300 --> 00:15:20.030 align:middle line:84% And I think the anthology is a powerful way to assert that. 00:15:20.030 --> 00:15:23.870 align:middle line:84% And I'm really thankful for the folks that have been involved. 00:15:23.870 --> 00:15:28.850 align:middle line:84% It's not a-- it's a slice of contemporary American poetry. 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:30.950 align:middle line:84% But it's a beautiful slice, you know? 00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:34.340 align:middle line:90% It's a wonderful slice. 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:36.840 align:middle line:84% That's a great way of putting it. 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.190 align:middle line:84% I think what keeps the refrain in your work, 00:15:40.190 --> 00:15:43.760 align:middle line:84% and just sort of talking is, like, how important a book-- 00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:46.970 align:middle line:90% how important books are to you. 00:15:46.970 --> 00:15:49.040 align:middle line:90% All books, right? 00:15:49.040 --> 00:15:51.200 align:middle line:84% And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:55.550 align:middle line:84% about The Million Book Project, and, you know, what that is. 00:15:55.550 --> 00:15:58.430 align:middle line:84% Because that's another amazing sort of thing 00:15:58.430 --> 00:16:02.535 align:middle line:84% that you're leading and you're doing now. 00:16:02.535 --> 00:16:03.910 align:middle line:84% Yeah, so The Million Book Project 00:16:03.910 --> 00:16:07.320 align:middle line:84% is basically just arguing, right? 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.980 align:middle line:84% What does it mean if we put a freedom library in prisons 00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:12.750 align:middle line:84% all across this country in every state. 00:16:12.750 --> 00:16:15.570 align:middle line:84% And a freedom library is both a physical structure. 00:16:15.570 --> 00:16:19.440 align:middle line:84% Like a shelving-- a set of shelving units that also have 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:20.850 align:middle line:90% places for you to sit down. 00:16:20.850 --> 00:16:24.720 align:middle line:84% But to transform the space in prison, so that it's not just-- 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:26.978 align:middle line:84% and it's in the housing unit, so that you could go, 00:16:26.978 --> 00:16:28.770 align:middle line:84% and you could grab these books while you're 00:16:28.770 --> 00:16:30.480 align:middle line:90% in the housing unit. 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:31.758 align:middle line:90% And it's based on the arc. 00:16:31.758 --> 00:16:33.300 align:middle line:84% Based on thinking about Martin Luther 00:16:33.300 --> 00:16:36.510 align:middle line:84% King's quote about the moral arc of the universe 00:16:36.510 --> 00:16:39.030 align:middle line:90% bends towards justice. 00:16:39.030 --> 00:16:41.670 align:middle line:84% And so yeah, we curated this 500-book set, 00:16:41.670 --> 00:16:43.650 align:middle line:84% and we're working with MASS Design 00:16:43.650 --> 00:16:47.070 align:middle line:84% to build these actual physical spaces 00:16:47.070 --> 00:16:48.660 align:middle line:84% that we can put in dormitories, and we 00:16:48.660 --> 00:16:49.900 align:middle line:90% can put in housing units. 00:16:49.900 --> 00:16:51.375 align:middle line:84% And we also got a set up to partner 00:16:51.375 --> 00:16:53.250 align:middle line:84% with the correctional officers, and make sure 00:16:53.250 --> 00:16:55.560 align:middle line:84% that they had their own library, too. 00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:57.360 align:middle line:84% Because it ain't just me who needs 00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:59.940 align:middle line:90% to read 100 Years of Solitude. 00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:02.985 align:middle line:84% It's the correctional officers as well who 00:17:02.985 --> 00:17:04.230 align:middle line:90% want to, who should want to. 00:17:04.230 --> 00:17:07.079 align:middle line:84% And so we encouraging it on both sides. 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.730 align:middle line:84% And we got a bunch of literary ambassadors who-- 00:17:11.730 --> 00:17:15.089 align:middle line:84% we're working to extend the project that we started here 00:17:15.089 --> 00:17:16.980 align:middle line:90% at the Arizona Poetry Center. 00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:19.170 align:middle line:84% In a sense that, we got these literary ambassadors 00:17:19.170 --> 00:17:21.180 align:middle line:84% who are committing to go inside prisons, 00:17:21.180 --> 00:17:23.550 align:middle line:84% and we trying to make it even more capacious. 00:17:23.550 --> 00:17:25.140 align:middle line:90% You know, hundreds of folks. 00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:27.569 align:middle line:84% Like, yeah, show up into the prison in your community. 00:17:27.569 --> 00:17:29.760 align:middle line:84% Because the job, I think, and the role 00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:31.560 align:middle line:90% is to see and to be seen. 00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:33.780 align:middle line:84% I was just on a call earlier today 00:17:33.780 --> 00:17:37.950 align:middle line:84% with some ladies at a prison in Houston. 00:17:37.950 --> 00:17:38.880 align:middle line:90% And it was cool. 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.400 align:middle line:84% And I know-- I mean, you could imagine this, Joe. 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:43.740 align:middle line:84% Like, the warden calls you into their office 00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:45.960 align:middle line:84% to get on a Zoom call to talk about books. 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.420 align:middle line:90% You're like, what? 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:49.180 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:52.110 align:middle line:84% And so it's like building these opportunities that 00:17:52.110 --> 00:17:54.270 align:middle line:84% have both the warden doing something 00:17:54.270 --> 00:17:56.760 align:middle line:84% that they wouldn't have imagined doing before, 00:17:56.760 --> 00:17:58.530 align:middle line:84% and the people inside doing this. 00:17:58.530 --> 00:18:01.470 align:middle line:84% And we talk about The Mars Room by Rachel Kushner. 00:18:01.470 --> 00:18:04.410 align:middle line:84% And it was a real conversation, a real discussion. 00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:05.910 align:middle line:84% So The Million Book Project really 00:18:05.910 --> 00:18:09.360 align:middle line:84% is starting with this very real notion 00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:12.760 align:middle line:90% that freedom begins with a book. 00:18:12.760 --> 00:18:14.772 align:middle line:84% And then saying, where do you go from there? 00:18:14.772 --> 00:18:17.230 align:middle line:84% And we got podcast, and we got all of these other elements, 00:18:17.230 --> 00:18:19.870 align:middle line:84% but the fundamental principle is that freedom 00:18:19.870 --> 00:18:21.070 align:middle line:90% begins with a book. 00:18:21.070 --> 00:18:23.260 align:middle line:84% And we will put freedom libraries 00:18:23.260 --> 00:18:28.810 align:middle line:84% in prisons in every state in this country and Puerto Rico. 00:18:28.810 --> 00:18:29.770 align:middle line:90% That's fantastic. 00:18:29.770 --> 00:18:31.990 align:middle line:84% Can you say where we can find the podcast? 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:34.768 align:middle line:84% I listen to one of them, I think, maybe on YouTube. 00:18:34.768 --> 00:18:36.310 align:middle line:84% Yeah, so you can find them on YouTube 00:18:36.310 --> 00:18:38.742 align:middle line:84% at The Million Book Project's YouTube channel. 00:18:38.742 --> 00:18:41.200 align:middle line:84% But you can also download them on Apple, we love followers. 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.030 align:middle line:84% Download them on Apple, subscribe. 00:18:43.030 --> 00:18:46.900 align:middle line:84% I mean, we got podcasts with Miriam Toews, which is awesome. 00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:49.690 align:middle line:90% Deesha Philyaw, great. 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:52.600 align:middle line:84% James McBride is just like super cool, right? 00:18:52.600 --> 00:18:55.040 align:middle line:90% Like a real cool cat. 00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:57.190 align:middle line:90% Rion Amilcar Scott. 00:18:57.190 --> 00:19:00.550 align:middle line:84% Coming up soon is Natalie Diaz and Randall Horton. 00:19:00.550 --> 00:19:02.710 align:middle line:90% One of the podcast features me. 00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:05.020 align:middle line:84% We'll be interviewing Marlon James, which is going 00:19:05.020 --> 00:19:07.250 align:middle line:90% to be really dope, next month. 00:19:07.250 --> 00:19:11.770 align:middle line:84% We also got Jesmyn Ward on the come up soon. 00:19:11.770 --> 00:19:14.950 align:middle line:84% And Erika Sánchez, whose book, I Am Not Your Perfect Mexican 00:19:14.950 --> 00:19:18.070 align:middle line:90% Daughter, it's just wonderful. 00:19:18.070 --> 00:19:19.610 align:middle line:84% We'll have her on a podcast as well. 00:19:19.610 --> 00:19:21.350 align:middle line:90% So it would be really dope. 00:19:21.350 --> 00:19:25.130 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I think I'm excited, I'm excited about it. 00:19:25.130 --> 00:19:27.815 align:middle line:84% But yeah, I think you can check it out wherever 00:19:27.815 --> 00:19:28.690 align:middle line:90% you can get podcasts. 00:19:28.690 --> 00:19:30.820 align:middle line:84% Go to Apple, download it, subscribe. 00:19:30.820 --> 00:19:32.650 align:middle line:90% Write a comment, you know? 00:19:32.650 --> 00:19:33.360 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:33.610 align:middle line:90% Yeah-- 00:19:33.610 --> 00:19:34.690 align:middle line:84% And it's also-- and I should just say, 00:19:34.690 --> 00:19:36.580 align:middle line:84% the podcast is for people inside, too. 00:19:36.580 --> 00:19:39.130 align:middle line:84% And the way we framed it is, the first part of the podcast 00:19:39.130 --> 00:19:41.355 align:middle line:84% there's a 10 minute reading with a writer of reach 00:19:41.355 --> 00:19:41.980 align:middle line:90% from that work. 00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:44.225 align:middle line:84% Because in prison, you don't have poetry readings, 00:19:44.225 --> 00:19:45.850 align:middle line:84% you don't have fiction readings, right? 00:19:45.850 --> 00:19:48.203 align:middle line:84% And so we set it up with the first 10 minutes, 00:19:48.203 --> 00:19:50.620 align:middle line:84% the writer reads from their work, to get you in the mood-- 00:19:50.620 --> 00:19:53.080 align:middle line:90% if you were at a reading. 00:19:53.080 --> 00:19:55.635 align:middle line:90% And then we do a back and forth. 00:19:55.635 --> 00:19:57.010 align:middle line:84% And that idea is to collapse some 00:19:57.010 --> 00:19:59.188 align:middle line:84% of the distance between the work that we write, 00:19:59.188 --> 00:20:01.480 align:middle line:84% and the words that we say about the work that we write, 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:02.890 align:middle line:84% and about the lives that we live. 00:20:02.890 --> 00:20:05.910 align:middle line:84% So the folks inside can be like, oh. 00:20:05.910 --> 00:20:08.160 align:middle line:84% Yeah, Deesha Philyaw just read to me for 10 minutes, 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.120 align:middle line:90% and I was digging that. 00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:11.070 align:middle line:84% You know, and then you pick up the book, 00:20:11.070 --> 00:20:16.710 align:middle line:84% and it's less of a feeling that, like, is this too much for me? 00:20:16.710 --> 00:20:18.360 align:middle line:84% What is the literacy level in this? 00:20:18.360 --> 00:20:21.360 align:middle line:84% You know, you hear Erika Sánchez read from the novel, 00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:24.810 align:middle line:84% and you're like, oh, she sounded like my cousin, you know? 00:20:24.810 --> 00:20:27.090 align:middle line:84% She even got using the words that my people use. 00:20:27.090 --> 00:20:30.420 align:middle line:84% And so I think it would create a really rich experience 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:32.600 align:middle line:90% for folks. 00:20:32.600 --> 00:20:34.190 align:middle line:90% That's awesome. 00:20:34.190 --> 00:20:37.610 align:middle line:84% Well, Dwayne, it's been amazing hearing your new work, 00:20:37.610 --> 00:20:39.020 align:middle line:90% hearing about your projects. 00:20:39.020 --> 00:20:42.080 align:middle line:84% Also, continuing to work with you on the anthology. 00:20:42.080 --> 00:20:43.490 align:middle line:90% And I just-- 00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:45.410 align:middle line:84% I really believe in your work, and I'm just 00:20:45.410 --> 00:20:48.320 align:middle line:84% so glad that I'm in the orbit at the Poetry Center 00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:50.570 align:middle line:84% to work with, not only you, but also with Joe, 00:20:50.570 --> 00:20:53.480 align:middle line:90% who's also doing amazing work. 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.570 align:middle line:84% But grateful for your time and for your words. 00:20:56.570 --> 00:20:58.412 align:middle line:90% And if there's any-- 00:20:58.412 --> 00:21:00.120 align:middle line:84% I don't think that there's anything else, 00:21:00.120 --> 00:21:02.735 align:middle line:90% I just want to just be-- 00:21:02.735 --> 00:21:06.470 align:middle line:84% end the night, we're just like-- just gratefulness and just-- 00:21:06.470 --> 00:21:09.440 align:middle line:84% I'm appreciative of the work that you both do. 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:10.400 align:middle line:90% That was a honor, man. 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:11.630 align:middle line:90% Thank you, Diana. 00:21:11.630 --> 00:21:12.410 align:middle line:90% Thanks, Joe. 00:21:12.410 --> 00:21:13.070 align:middle line:90% It was dope. 00:21:13.070 --> 00:21:14.770 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:21:14.770 --> 00:21:20.000 align:middle line:90%