WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.630 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.630 --> 00:00:02.430 align:middle line:84% OK, can anyone think of a question? 00:00:02.430 --> 00:00:06.310 align:middle line:90% 00:00:06.310 --> 00:00:06.820 align:middle line:90% Yes? 00:00:06.820 --> 00:00:08.320 align:middle line:90% How long have you been writing? 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.450 align:middle line:90% Oh. 00:00:10.450 --> 00:00:14.200 align:middle line:84% Since the Jurassic period I think. 00:00:14.200 --> 00:00:17.150 align:middle line:84% Would you repeat the question that was asked? 00:00:17.150 --> 00:00:18.970 align:middle line:90% Oh, that's hard. 00:00:18.970 --> 00:00:22.750 align:middle line:84% He said, how long have I been writing? 00:00:22.750 --> 00:00:24.640 align:middle line:90% That's the question. 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:27.940 align:middle line:84% I think I started making up poems when I was about five, 00:00:27.940 --> 00:00:32.617 align:middle line:84% but I started thinking of myself as a poet 00:00:32.617 --> 00:00:33.700 align:middle line:90% when I was maybe about 22. 00:00:33.700 --> 00:00:37.370 align:middle line:90% 00:00:37.370 --> 00:00:39.590 align:middle line:90% OK, anybody else? 00:00:39.590 --> 00:00:40.760 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:43.400 align:middle line:84% I live in San Diego for about 14 years 00:00:43.400 --> 00:00:47.330 align:middle line:84% and I found from a graphic or a painting type 00:00:47.330 --> 00:00:50.870 align:middle line:84% artistic point of view, it's kind of a [INAUDIBLE] 00:00:50.870 --> 00:00:52.850 align:middle line:84% Oh, no, I didn't hear what you said, so repeat. 00:00:52.850 --> 00:00:55.190 align:middle line:90% --that's why I'm stuck. 00:00:55.190 --> 00:00:58.130 align:middle line:84% It's a disappointing town compared with LA. 00:00:58.130 --> 00:01:00.620 align:middle line:84% You know, LA is bigger, the art is quite 00:01:00.620 --> 00:01:02.330 align:middle line:90% a lot better of course. 00:01:02.330 --> 00:01:05.239 align:middle line:84% And I came in here, this is some years ago-- 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:06.860 align:middle line:90% No, it's still true. 00:01:06.860 --> 00:01:10.980 align:middle line:84% Well, I'm asking you from point of "Written of Living." 00:01:10.980 --> 00:01:14.780 align:middle line:84% Well, there are a number of interesting poets there 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:17.300 align:middle line:90% and we do have a reading series. 00:01:17.300 --> 00:01:20.150 align:middle line:84% But you know, David Antin has lived there, Jerome Rothenberg, 00:01:20.150 --> 00:01:23.110 align:middle line:84% Eileen Myles, Fanny Howe lived there for quite a while, 00:01:23.110 --> 00:01:25.310 align:middle line:90% though she moved. 00:01:25.310 --> 00:01:26.765 align:middle line:90% Marilyn Chen lives there. 00:01:26.765 --> 00:01:29.960 align:middle line:90% 00:01:29.960 --> 00:01:31.850 align:middle line:90% Michael Davidson. 00:01:31.850 --> 00:01:37.730 align:middle line:84% So I have a number of poet friends and it's not New York, 00:01:37.730 --> 00:01:41.870 align:middle line:84% it's not San Francisco, but you know, I'm not alone. 00:01:41.870 --> 00:01:45.870 align:middle line:90% 00:01:45.870 --> 00:01:48.590 align:middle line:90% OK, anybody else? 00:01:48.590 --> 00:01:49.370 align:middle line:90% Yeah, in the back. 00:01:49.370 --> 00:01:52.010 align:middle line:84% Where do you get your influences while writing? 00:01:52.010 --> 00:01:52.625 align:middle line:90% Oh, OK. 00:01:52.625 --> 00:01:55.550 align:middle line:90% 00:01:55.550 --> 00:01:57.710 align:middle line:84% Well, I think William Carlos Williams 00:01:57.710 --> 00:02:02.720 align:middle line:84% was a big influence on me early on, and then Emily Dickinson. 00:02:02.720 --> 00:02:05.810 align:middle line:90% 00:02:05.810 --> 00:02:10.430 align:middle line:84% And I think she kind of gives a lot of permission 00:02:10.430 --> 00:02:19.150 align:middle line:84% to talk to the big issues or talk at them or something, 00:02:19.150 --> 00:02:22.090 align:middle line:84% and not always in a reverential way. 00:02:22.090 --> 00:02:24.750 align:middle line:90% 00:02:24.750 --> 00:02:26.970 align:middle line:84% Robert Creeley for sound and line 00:02:26.970 --> 00:02:32.430 align:middle line:84% break, intensity in his work that I like. 00:02:32.430 --> 00:02:36.090 align:middle line:84% And some of my contemporaries too. 00:02:36.090 --> 00:02:38.310 align:middle line:84% Lorine Niedecker, not that she's a contemporary, 00:02:38.310 --> 00:02:42.500 align:middle line:84% but she's another one who comes to mind. 00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:43.050 align:middle line:90% George Oppen. 00:02:43.050 --> 00:02:46.165 align:middle line:90% 00:02:46.165 --> 00:02:48.790 align:middle line:84% I don't know if these people are familiar to you, some of them, 00:02:48.790 --> 00:02:50.470 align:middle line:90% I suppose. 00:02:50.470 --> 00:02:52.870 align:middle line:90% OK, anybody else? 00:02:52.870 --> 00:02:55.030 align:middle line:84% I think you're going somewhere, right? 00:02:55.030 --> 00:02:57.610 align:middle line:90% I noticed as I was reading. 00:02:57.610 --> 00:03:00.520 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I think I obviously put some thought into what's 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:03.862 align:middle line:90% going to go after what. 00:03:03.862 --> 00:03:06.070 align:middle line:84% And I noticed that, as I was reading, although now, I 00:03:06.070 --> 00:03:08.528 align:middle line:84% can't remember what it was, but there was a poem that ended 00:03:08.528 --> 00:03:12.100 align:middle line:84% on one word and then picked up again on the next poem, 00:03:12.100 --> 00:03:15.725 align:middle line:84% picked up with the same word or something so. 00:03:15.725 --> 00:03:17.350 align:middle line:84% Then I was thinking, is that redundant? 00:03:17.350 --> 00:03:21.350 align:middle line:84% Or is that just continuing a thought in a different way? 00:03:21.350 --> 00:03:22.240 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:25.060 align:middle line:90% But, yeah, I think-- 00:03:25.060 --> 00:03:28.060 align:middle line:84% you want to get some conversation going 00:03:28.060 --> 00:03:32.740 align:middle line:84% between the poems that are close to each other in the manuscript 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:34.918 align:middle line:90% if you can. 00:03:34.918 --> 00:03:36.160 align:middle line:90% What in what way? 00:03:36.160 --> 00:03:39.370 align:middle line:84% Well, I love the sound of poetry, you know? 00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:42.640 align:middle line:84% And I like it, I really like it when that happens. 00:03:42.640 --> 00:03:46.240 align:middle line:84% When I do it myself or if I'm reading somebody else's poetry, 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.340 align:middle line:84% I get a great deal of pleasure out of that. 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:50.870 align:middle line:84% I think, for instance, Fanny Howe, whom I mentioned, 00:03:50.870 --> 00:03:53.470 align:middle line:90% has a terrific ear. 00:03:53.470 --> 00:03:55.810 align:middle line:84% But the broader question, do I think of myself 00:03:55.810 --> 00:03:56.920 align:middle line:90% as a lyric poet? 00:03:56.920 --> 00:03:59.500 align:middle line:84% You know, I never know how to define that term. 00:03:59.500 --> 00:04:03.310 align:middle line:84% If it means somebody interested in sound, then yes . 00:04:03.310 --> 00:04:08.410 align:middle line:84% If it means somebody who writes first-person 00:04:08.410 --> 00:04:12.310 align:middle line:84% poems about emotional experiences, 00:04:12.310 --> 00:04:14.725 align:middle line:90% then yes, no, maybe, you know? 00:04:14.725 --> 00:04:17.890 align:middle line:90% 00:04:17.890 --> 00:04:19.750 align:middle line:84% Some people think that a lyric poet-- 00:04:19.750 --> 00:04:24.520 align:middle line:84% I heard lyric poetry defined as poetry addressed to a beloved. 00:04:24.520 --> 00:04:26.860 align:middle line:84% If that's the case, well, seldom. 00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:29.140 align:middle line:90% Not never, but seldom. 00:04:29.140 --> 00:04:31.930 align:middle line:84% So it really depends on how that word is defined 00:04:31.930 --> 00:04:34.700 align:middle line:84% and I think it has a lot of different definitions, 00:04:34.700 --> 00:04:39.670 align:middle line:84% but, yeah, sound is very important to me. 00:04:39.670 --> 00:04:44.116 align:middle line:90% Like the poem that's called-- 00:04:44.116 --> 00:04:48.730 align:middle line:84% Let's see it, I could find it quickly. 00:04:48.730 --> 00:04:53.718 align:middle line:90% If not, I'll give up in despair. 00:04:53.718 --> 00:04:56.130 align:middle line:84% It's really important you read about that, 00:04:56.130 --> 00:04:58.300 align:middle line:84% because that's the little innocuous 00:04:58.300 --> 00:04:59.590 align:middle line:90% words that turn you on. 00:04:59.590 --> 00:05:00.410 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah, right. 00:05:00.410 --> 00:05:02.410 align:middle line:84% You're not fooling anybody, they do turn you up. 00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:03.340 align:middle line:90% Yeah, sure. 00:05:03.340 --> 00:05:04.360 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah! 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.180 align:middle line:84% They're funny, but obviously, yeah extrapolating. 00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:10.150 align:middle line:90% 00:05:10.150 --> 00:05:13.030 align:middle line:90% Strap X strap. 00:05:13.030 --> 00:05:13.810 align:middle line:90% It's a great word. 00:05:13.810 --> 00:05:19.060 align:middle line:90% 00:05:19.060 --> 00:05:21.850 align:middle line:84% Or this one called the racket, I really 00:05:21.850 --> 00:05:25.630 align:middle line:84% like when it gets to market and then it goes back to racket-- 00:05:25.630 --> 00:05:27.700 align:middle line:84% I like market and racket together. 00:05:27.700 --> 00:05:31.040 align:middle line:84% So yeah, I get a kick out of that, 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:35.290 align:middle line:84% and I think that is sort of the juice of a lot of the juice 00:05:35.290 --> 00:05:37.320 align:middle line:90% of poetry's there somewhere. 00:05:37.320 --> 00:05:37.820 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:05:37.820 --> 00:05:38.830 align:middle line:90% What's your curriculum? 00:05:38.830 --> 00:05:40.330 align:middle line:90% That's mapped out for you? 00:05:40.330 --> 00:05:43.150 align:middle line:84% I like that description, so thank you. 00:05:43.150 --> 00:05:46.000 align:middle line:84% But I think the really fancy road at 60 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.680 align:middle line:84% is something that some people complain about of course too, 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:53.260 align:middle line:84% it's like there's not a whole lot of setup. 00:05:53.260 --> 00:05:57.310 align:middle line:84% There's like you're already right into it right away. 00:05:57.310 --> 00:06:00.370 align:middle line:90% Sort of free-for-all, you know? 00:06:00.370 --> 00:06:04.180 align:middle line:84% And that's true because I get bored with long setups. 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:08.650 align:middle line:84% So you know, I was sitting on the porch watching blah, blah, 00:06:08.650 --> 00:06:10.780 align:middle line:84% blah, what I thought, blah, blah, blah. 00:06:10.780 --> 00:06:13.810 align:middle line:90% I would just start after that. 00:06:13.810 --> 00:06:21.240 align:middle line:90% 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.230 align:middle line:84% Yeah, well, I think we have to defend ourselves 00:06:23.230 --> 00:06:24.340 align:middle line:90% as best we can. 00:06:24.340 --> 00:06:29.895 align:middle line:84% Sometimes, you just have to throw it back somehow. 00:06:29.895 --> 00:06:32.020 align:middle line:84% It gets thrown at you and you have to throw it back 00:06:32.020 --> 00:06:36.100 align:middle line:90% in a different form, So yeah. 00:06:36.100 --> 00:06:39.520 align:middle line:84% I think humor is serious, you know? 00:06:39.520 --> 00:06:41.500 align:middle line:84% I mean, I guess, I think comedians 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:44.920 align:middle line:84% think that humor is serious too and humor often 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:50.500 align:middle line:84% addresses philosophical conundrums. 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:54.550 align:middle line:84% So yeah, I don't I don't mind being funny. 00:06:54.550 --> 00:06:55.180 align:middle line:90% I like to be-- 00:06:55.180 --> 00:06:56.347 align:middle line:90% I like it when people laugh. 00:06:56.347 --> 00:07:01.120 align:middle line:90% 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:03.950 align:middle line:84% No, I think it is, I don't know exactly how to answer it. 00:07:03.950 --> 00:07:05.032 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's good-- 00:07:05.032 --> 00:07:06.740 align:middle line:84% OK, I don't know if it's a good question, 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:09.270 align:middle line:90% but it's a good observation. 00:07:09.270 --> 00:07:13.750 align:middle line:84% I am very intrigued by cemeteries. 00:07:13.750 --> 00:07:17.740 align:middle line:84% And both by forming them and by breaking them. 00:07:17.740 --> 00:07:22.930 align:middle line:84% And you know, I'm intrigued by pairs, and by echoes, 00:07:22.930 --> 00:07:24.850 align:middle line:90% and by doubles. 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:26.740 align:middle line:84% You know, I don't know what to say about that 00:07:26.740 --> 00:07:29.260 align:middle line:84% except that it's true, I am intrigued by those things 00:07:29.260 --> 00:07:32.170 align:middle line:84% and they do keep appearing in my work. 00:07:32.170 --> 00:07:38.350 align:middle line:84% Do your studies influence the way that unfolds in your work? 00:07:38.350 --> 00:07:45.485 align:middle line:84% And that the frequency, how often does that change? 00:07:45.485 --> 00:07:48.540 align:middle line:90% Could you track that, as far as? 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:49.560 align:middle line:90% Oh, not much. 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:56.520 align:middle line:84% I think it's probably increased over time. 00:07:56.520 --> 00:07:59.200 align:middle line:84% But maybe, things just increase over time, 00:07:59.200 --> 00:08:03.002 align:middle line:84% so it seems like there's a lot of that now but-- 00:08:03.002 --> 00:08:04.710 align:middle line:84% My studies, well, I don't know about my-- 00:08:04.710 --> 00:08:07.110 align:middle line:84% I mean, I read, obviously, we all read 00:08:07.110 --> 00:08:14.430 align:middle line:84% and I've read some things about symmetry in nature 00:08:14.430 --> 00:08:16.836 align:middle line:90% that are interesting. 00:08:16.836 --> 00:08:18.060 align:middle line:90% So, you know. 00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:22.200 align:middle line:90% 00:08:22.200 --> 00:08:28.530 align:middle line:84% I guess, form in nature or just form generally, intrigues me. 00:08:28.530 --> 00:08:30.360 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.539 align:middle line:90% Do I know what this phase is? 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:34.650 align:middle line:90% What is this phase? 00:08:34.650 --> 00:08:36.200 align:middle line:90% --you're exploring. 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:40.140 align:middle line:84% Maybe you could say some words about that. 00:08:40.140 --> 00:08:43.049 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I see that. 00:08:43.049 --> 00:08:47.400 align:middle line:84% I do find space interesting-- the space between words, 00:08:47.400 --> 00:08:51.630 align:middle line:84% I guess, the space between ideas, the anxious blank 00:08:51.630 --> 00:08:55.470 align:middle line:84% that god loves was in one poem, you know? 00:08:55.470 --> 00:08:57.420 align:middle line:84% Because emptiness concern, emptiness 00:08:57.420 --> 00:09:01.170 align:middle line:84% makes us uncomfortable, but it also defines things. 00:09:01.170 --> 00:09:02.940 align:middle line:84% It can't have shapes if you don't 00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:05.730 align:middle line:84% have emptiness around them or something 00:09:05.730 --> 00:09:09.120 align:middle line:84% that looks like emptiness, like white space on a page, say. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:14.580 align:middle line:90% So yeah, I mean-- 00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:17.100 align:middle line:84% I guess, I think silence and space 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:21.375 align:middle line:84% are sort of an integral part of the work. 00:09:21.375 --> 00:09:24.360 align:middle line:90% 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:25.480 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:28.320 align:middle line:84% Does it feel like it has an integrity? 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.460 align:middle line:90% Were those the choices? 00:09:31.460 --> 00:09:35.850 align:middle line:84% I wanted to have integrity and also be open. 00:09:35.850 --> 00:09:37.170 align:middle line:90% Can I have it both ways? 00:09:37.170 --> 00:09:38.770 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:09:38.770 --> 00:09:39.270 align:middle line:90% You do. 00:09:39.270 --> 00:09:43.330 align:middle line:90% 00:09:43.330 --> 00:09:43.830 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:45.750 align:middle line:90% Anybody else? 00:09:45.750 --> 00:09:48.330 align:middle line:84% In the introduction, you were described as a foreigner 00:09:48.330 --> 00:09:49.770 align:middle line:90% to language culture. 00:09:49.770 --> 00:09:51.840 align:middle line:84% Do you think that that's accurate [INAUDIBLE]?? 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:55.320 align:middle line:84% No, because I'm not older than those people. 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:59.640 align:middle line:84% Some good number of them are older than me, so, no, I just 00:09:59.640 --> 00:10:01.260 align:middle line:90% was one of the language poets. 00:10:01.260 --> 00:10:03.930 align:middle line:84% Nobody is ever comfortable saying 00:10:03.930 --> 00:10:06.720 align:middle line:84% that, I hear that described so many ways, 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.380 align:middle line:84% like, she is related to language poetry 00:10:10.380 --> 00:10:13.110 align:middle line:84% or sometimes compared to language poetry. 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:15.580 align:middle line:84% I guess, it's because language poetry, to some extent, 00:10:15.580 --> 00:10:21.360 align:middle line:84% has a kind of a bad boy reputation of some sort, 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:25.050 align:middle line:84% and so nobody wants to say, you're a language poet. 00:10:25.050 --> 00:10:29.340 align:middle line:84% But I guess, I was, if it means anything to be in that group. 00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:31.590 align:middle line:84% I mean, I probably wasn't a typical one, 00:10:31.590 --> 00:10:35.760 align:middle line:84% and so that's why people want to hedge it maybe. 00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:38.850 align:middle line:84% It's not just that it's kind of "could be," 00:10:38.850 --> 00:10:42.100 align:middle line:84% a kind of problematic term, which it can, but you know, 00:10:42.100 --> 00:10:46.100 align:middle line:90% I was also maybe not the most-- 00:10:46.100 --> 00:10:47.970 align:middle line:84% not the best example for the paradigm. 00:10:47.970 --> 00:10:55.710 align:middle line:84% But you know, I was there with Ron Silliman and Bob Perelman 00:10:55.710 --> 00:10:58.650 align:middle line:84% and Lyn Hejinian in San Francisco 00:10:58.650 --> 00:11:00.720 align:middle line:84% when we were all starting out and being friends, 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.690 align:middle line:84% and so I guess that makes me one of them, 00:11:03.690 --> 00:11:05.820 align:middle line:90% but not a foreigner of them. 00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:08.490 align:middle line:90% 00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:09.150 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:11:09.150 --> 00:11:11.002 align:middle line:90% --for one more question. 00:11:11.002 --> 00:11:15.170 align:middle line:90% 00:11:15.170 --> 00:11:16.100 align:middle line:90% No? 00:11:16.100 --> 00:11:17.330 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:11:17.330 --> 00:11:20.360 align:middle line:84% Well, thank you for coming and asking me those questions. 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:22.210 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:11:22.210 --> 00:11:23.000 align:middle line:90%