WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.200 align:middle line:90% 00:00:01.200 --> 00:00:06.450 align:middle line:84% So I was really struck by your engagement with history, 00:00:06.450 --> 00:00:14.190 align:middle line:84% and not only that, your commitment to fact, the parrot. 00:00:14.190 --> 00:00:16.200 align:middle line:90% We talk about poetic license. 00:00:16.200 --> 00:00:20.670 align:middle line:84% Obviously, you have a pretty strict one. 00:00:20.670 --> 00:00:24.810 align:middle line:84% So I was wondering about a lot of things that were in my head. 00:00:24.810 --> 00:00:29.640 align:middle line:84% One was did this come as a part of excavating 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:33.240 align:middle line:90% your own personal ancestry? 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:37.700 align:middle line:84% In that with Beethoven, or that has no relationship at all? 00:00:37.700 --> 00:00:39.480 align:middle line:90% Just how did that happen? 00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:40.840 align:middle line:90% How did it happen? 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:41.932 align:middle line:90% Well [AUDIO OUT]. 00:00:41.932 --> 00:00:44.910 align:middle line:90% 00:00:44.910 --> 00:00:47.490 align:middle line:84% Everything, I think almost everything 00:00:47.490 --> 00:00:50.520 align:middle line:84% that these characters in my poems think, 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:52.110 align:middle line:90% is of course, poetic license. 00:00:52.110 --> 00:00:55.020 align:middle line:84% How do we know what someone is really thinking? 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:58.650 align:middle line:90% We can perhaps hazard a guess. 00:00:58.650 --> 00:01:01.020 align:middle line:90% But how do we know? 00:01:01.020 --> 00:01:03.420 align:middle line:84% But the facts surrounding it, I guess 00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:04.830 align:middle line:90% I am pretty strict about that. 00:01:04.830 --> 00:01:07.080 align:middle line:84% I think that if someone is reading a poem, 00:01:07.080 --> 00:01:11.700 align:middle line:84% and they know that irises don't grow at a certain altitude, 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:14.650 align:middle line:84% and I've stuck irises in there, I've lost that reader. 00:01:14.650 --> 00:01:15.150 align:middle line:90% That's it. 00:01:15.150 --> 00:01:16.530 align:middle line:84% They're not going to go there, because they're not 00:01:16.530 --> 00:01:17.850 align:middle line:90% going to believe me. 00:01:17.850 --> 00:01:21.720 align:middle line:84% There are enough moments in life that 00:01:21.720 --> 00:01:26.250 align:middle line:84% are a mystery to all of us, even as we're 00:01:26.250 --> 00:01:30.960 align:middle line:84% walking through the world, to explore as a poet, 00:01:30.960 --> 00:01:34.020 align:middle line:84% that the facts can certainly stay there, 00:01:34.020 --> 00:01:35.100 align:middle line:90% as far as I'm concerned. 00:01:35.100 --> 00:01:39.720 align:middle line:84% Now when I was growing up, I was very hyper aware of the fact 00:01:39.720 --> 00:01:45.930 align:middle line:84% that the world that I saw, and the way that I view the world, 00:01:45.930 --> 00:01:48.313 align:middle line:84% was radically different from the mainstream. 00:01:48.313 --> 00:01:49.980 align:middle line:84% The history that they were talking about 00:01:49.980 --> 00:01:53.050 align:middle line:84% was not the history that I was seeing being made around me. 00:01:53.050 --> 00:01:56.830 align:middle line:84% And so that, I think, also made me very, 00:01:56.830 --> 00:02:01.770 align:middle line:84% very, I don't know, fascinated by the idea of excavating 00:02:01.770 --> 00:02:05.910 align:middle line:84% all of those lost moments, those moments which don't make it 00:02:05.910 --> 00:02:06.990 align:middle line:90% into the history book. 00:02:06.990 --> 00:02:10.120 align:middle line:90% 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:15.060 align:middle line:84% I don't try to second guess why something intrigues me, 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:17.310 align:middle line:84% because I figure it will tell me soon enough, 00:02:17.310 --> 00:02:18.340 align:middle line:90% I'll figure it out. 00:02:18.340 --> 00:02:21.210 align:middle line:84% And in the case of Sonata Mulattica, 00:02:21.210 --> 00:02:28.170 align:middle line:84% in the case of the musician, I was just haunted. 00:02:28.170 --> 00:02:29.310 align:middle line:90% I couldn't let him go. 00:02:29.310 --> 00:02:34.800 align:middle line:84% I grew up playing the cello, and so I knew classical music. 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.460 align:middle line:84% And I speak German, and so it seems like a great fit. 00:02:38.460 --> 00:02:41.790 align:middle line:84% But he was a male in a male-oriented society, 00:02:41.790 --> 00:02:44.940 align:middle line:84% and that was the hardest part, trying 00:02:44.940 --> 00:02:48.940 align:middle line:90% to be a male in that time. 00:02:48.940 --> 00:02:51.660 align:middle line:84% And there were times when I would kind of stomp out 00:02:51.660 --> 00:02:55.930 align:middle line:84% of my study, and go to Fred, and say, you guys are just, ooh. 00:02:55.930 --> 00:02:56.430 align:middle line:90% You know? 00:02:56.430 --> 00:02:59.130 align:middle line:84% And then I'd walk back in and write the seduction scene 00:02:59.130 --> 00:03:01.200 align:middle line:90% that I had to write. 00:03:01.200 --> 00:03:07.590 align:middle line:84% But that feeling of entitlement, the comfort in one's body, 00:03:07.590 --> 00:03:10.480 align:middle line:84% was something that I got from inhabiting those characters. 00:03:10.480 --> 00:03:13.140 align:middle line:84% And it sounds mysterious, and to me, it is mysterious. 00:03:13.140 --> 00:03:18.240 align:middle line:84% I do not know what happens if I slip into someone's character. 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:19.102 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:03:19.102 --> 00:03:20.310 align:middle line:90% I'm not going to question it. 00:03:20.310 --> 00:03:23.160 align:middle line:90% Do not mess with the muse. 00:03:23.160 --> 00:03:24.870 align:middle line:84% If she wants you to do it, you do it. 00:03:24.870 --> 00:03:34.020 align:middle line:90% 00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:40.270 align:middle line:84% I'm wondering what if any social or personal responsibility 00:03:40.270 --> 00:03:43.500 align:middle line:90% you think a poet has? 00:03:43.500 --> 00:03:44.000 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:47.240 align:middle line:84% The question is what [MUTED] responsibility 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:49.500 align:middle line:90% does a poet have? 00:03:49.500 --> 00:03:53.810 align:middle line:84% Well, the first responsibility the poet has is to their craft, 00:03:53.810 --> 00:03:57.350 align:middle line:84% and that is you write the best damn poem you can, 00:03:57.350 --> 00:03:59.750 align:middle line:84% because otherwise that poem is not going 00:03:59.750 --> 00:04:01.880 align:middle line:90% to do anything for anyone. 00:04:01.880 --> 00:04:05.000 align:middle line:84% Having said that, I think if you open your eyes 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.550 align:middle line:84% and you live in the world, you have a social responsibility. 00:04:08.550 --> 00:04:13.708 align:middle line:84% And I cannot understand an artist who does not feel 00:04:13.708 --> 00:04:15.500 align:middle line:84% the pressure of some social responsibility. 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:17.333 align:middle line:84% Now, whether that appears in the work or not 00:04:17.333 --> 00:04:22.670 align:middle line:84% is another question, because one can be a good citizen, 00:04:22.670 --> 00:04:26.570 align:middle line:84% and the work may not be about the thing 00:04:26.570 --> 00:04:28.670 align:middle line:90% that you're going to canvas. 00:04:28.670 --> 00:04:32.930 align:middle line:84% The main thing is to be aware and alive in the world. 00:04:32.930 --> 00:04:40.070 align:middle line:84% I find that if I just walk down any street I cannot ignore what 00:04:40.070 --> 00:04:41.150 align:middle line:90% I see. 00:04:41.150 --> 00:04:43.070 align:middle line:90% And I need to speak about it. 00:04:43.070 --> 00:04:45.440 align:middle line:90% But that's the way I go. 00:04:45.440 --> 00:04:46.740 align:middle line:90% That's the way I roll. 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:49.445 align:middle line:90% OK? 00:04:49.445 --> 00:04:51.920 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:53.330 align:middle line:90% Oh, right here. 00:04:53.330 --> 00:04:54.820 align:middle line:90% Right here. 00:04:54.820 --> 00:04:56.300 align:middle line:90% Hi. 00:04:56.300 --> 00:04:59.510 align:middle line:84% So as I from this question, I realize something you just 00:04:59.510 --> 00:05:05.270 align:middle line:84% said that made you say that you don't know, or you don't care. 00:05:05.270 --> 00:05:08.500 align:middle line:84% But I was curious in how often I heard 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:13.220 align:middle line:84% birds mentioned in your poetry, if the metaphor means something 00:05:13.220 --> 00:05:15.690 align:middle line:84% to you intentionally, or if it's one of those things 00:05:15.690 --> 00:05:20.090 align:middle line:84% that you were saying you don't question the magic [INAUDIBLE]?? 00:05:20.090 --> 00:05:22.880 align:middle line:84% Really good question about whether birds mean something 00:05:22.880 --> 00:05:24.680 align:middle line:90% to me or not, because I-- 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:26.480 align:middle line:84% well, obviously, my name is Dove. 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.860 align:middle line:84% And you know, when you're a child, you sit there. 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:33.350 align:middle line:84% I remember, like I was just studying my name, 00:05:33.350 --> 00:05:37.650 align:middle line:84% and trying to be whoever these words were. 00:05:37.650 --> 00:05:40.400 align:middle line:84% And I think that did make an impression on me, 00:05:40.400 --> 00:05:43.910 align:middle line:90% that I was aware of birds. 00:05:43.910 --> 00:05:48.200 align:middle line:84% And so, and then I do try to put a dove in every book, 00:05:48.200 --> 00:05:49.550 align:middle line:90% just for the heck of it. 00:05:49.550 --> 00:05:51.207 align:middle line:90% Sometimes it's a dove. 00:05:51.207 --> 00:05:52.790 align:middle line:84% You know, someone dove into something. 00:05:52.790 --> 00:05:55.070 align:middle line:84% But it's a-- now you can look for it. 00:05:55.070 --> 00:05:56.660 align:middle line:90% I'm always going to do it. 00:05:56.660 --> 00:06:01.540 align:middle line:84% But when I was working on the Collected Poems, 00:06:01.540 --> 00:06:04.040 align:middle line:84% and putting it together, and particularly doing all the copy 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:05.270 align:middle line:90% editing, where you have to-- 00:06:05.270 --> 00:06:08.180 align:middle line:84% that, there were several things where I thought, whoa, 00:06:08.180 --> 00:06:11.193 align:middle line:84% I didn't realize that that appeared all the time. 00:06:11.193 --> 00:06:12.860 align:middle line:84% There were several things that appeared. 00:06:12.860 --> 00:06:14.810 align:middle line:90% There are a lot of birds. 00:06:14.810 --> 00:06:18.800 align:middle line:84% I did not know that there were that many birds. 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:19.300 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:06:19.300 --> 00:06:23.560 align:middle line:90% 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.302 align:middle line:84% Do you have a particular work or series 00:06:26.302 --> 00:06:31.470 align:middle line:84% of work that you still have not finished and [INAUDIBLE]?? 00:06:31.470 --> 00:06:33.990 align:middle line:90% Oh, good one, Bill. 00:06:33.990 --> 00:06:37.560 align:middle line:84% Do I have a work or series of works 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:39.420 align:middle line:84% that I've been working on for a long time 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:41.190 align:middle line:90% that I have not yet finished? 00:06:41.190 --> 00:06:42.600 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.467 align:middle line:90% In fact, a couple of them. 00:06:46.467 --> 00:06:48.050 align:middle line:84% You can't say you've given up on them. 00:06:48.050 --> 00:06:53.600 align:middle line:84% But at least three chunks that have not been finished. 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.588 align:middle line:84% And one of them I don't think will ever be finished. 00:06:57.588 --> 00:06:58.130 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:06:58.130 --> 00:06:59.030 align:middle line:90% I don't think so. 00:06:59.030 --> 00:07:01.890 align:middle line:84% And sometimes you grow out of something. 00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:02.390 align:middle line:90% You know? 00:07:02.390 --> 00:07:03.230 align:middle line:90% That's the weird thing. 00:07:03.230 --> 00:07:05.147 align:middle line:84% And I think I kind of grew out of one of them. 00:07:05.147 --> 00:07:07.610 align:middle line:84% And another one that it's just too ephemeral. 00:07:07.610 --> 00:07:11.240 align:middle line:84% I just can't-- though they are poems. 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:13.140 align:middle line:84% I tend to work on many things at once, 00:07:13.140 --> 00:07:16.810 align:middle line:84% and I tend to work in fragments, so that there 00:07:16.810 --> 00:07:21.023 align:middle line:84% are many drafts of, like, one stanza in it, 00:07:21.023 --> 00:07:23.690 align:middle line:84% in the middle of the page, and I don't know where the rest of it 00:07:23.690 --> 00:07:24.480 align:middle line:90% is yet. 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.940 align:middle line:84% So much is floating that it's hard to tell. 00:07:28.940 --> 00:07:30.890 align:middle line:84% But there are serious chunks which 00:07:30.890 --> 00:07:32.560 align:middle line:84% could have been put together in a book, 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:35.790 align:middle line:90% and they may never make it. 00:07:35.790 --> 00:07:37.170 align:middle line:90% Archipelagos. 00:07:37.170 --> 00:07:38.100 align:middle line:90% Archipelagos. 00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:38.920 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:39.420 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:40.680 align:middle line:90% That's OK. 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:41.180 align:middle line:90% Great. 00:07:41.180 --> 00:07:42.887 align:middle line:90% Thank you so much. 00:07:42.887 --> 00:07:43.970 align:middle line:90% Another round of applause. 00:07:43.970 --> 00:07:44.630 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:07:44.630 --> 00:07:46.570 align:middle line:90% Thank you all.