WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.140 align:middle line:90% Thank you both so much. 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:04.620 align:middle line:84% So you both have, as others have mentioned, 00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:08.075 align:middle line:84% the portraits that are in the exhibit at the CCP. 00:00:08.075 --> 00:00:09.450 align:middle line:84% So could you tell us a little bit 00:00:09.450 --> 00:00:12.630 align:middle line:84% what was it like to have your photograph taken for that. 00:00:12.630 --> 00:00:14.585 align:middle line:84% Were you involved in deciding what 00:00:14.585 --> 00:00:15.960 align:middle line:84% you were doing in the photograph, 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:17.250 align:middle line:90% or how did it all come about? 00:00:17.250 --> 00:00:22.900 align:middle line:90% 00:00:22.900 --> 00:00:23.410 align:middle line:90% Sorry. 00:00:23.410 --> 00:00:25.070 align:middle line:84% Y'all ever have in your leg just-- 00:00:25.070 --> 00:00:26.196 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:00:26.196 --> 00:00:28.930 align:middle line:90% Pins and needles. 00:00:28.930 --> 00:00:30.600 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I don't know. 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:33.940 align:middle line:84% I think he would talk to a poet and then get recommendations 00:00:33.940 --> 00:00:37.180 align:middle line:84% from other poets about who he should photograph in whatever 00:00:37.180 --> 00:00:38.320 align:middle line:90% city he was going to. 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:38.830 align:middle line:90% Closer. 00:00:38.830 --> 00:00:40.360 align:middle line:90% OK, sorry. 00:00:40.360 --> 00:00:44.320 align:middle line:84% And so he pretended that we were looking for a theater 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.600 align:middle line:90% to do an independent play. 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:48.503 align:middle line:84% And then we went to their backstage area 00:00:48.503 --> 00:00:50.170 align:middle line:84% and it was like, OK, take your shirt off 00:00:50.170 --> 00:00:53.140 align:middle line:84% and you're going to put makeup on in front of this mirror. 00:00:53.140 --> 00:00:55.080 align:middle line:84% And I was really nervous that they 00:00:55.080 --> 00:00:59.230 align:middle line:84% were going to bust in and be like, you can't be in here 00:00:59.230 --> 00:01:01.090 align:middle line:90% shirtless. 00:01:01.090 --> 00:01:03.516 align:middle line:90% But yeah, so it was his idea. 00:01:03.516 --> 00:01:05.349 align:middle line:84% And then we collaborated in the conversation 00:01:05.349 --> 00:01:07.807 align:middle line:84% while I was really nervous we were going to get in trouble. 00:01:07.807 --> 00:01:12.440 align:middle line:84% And then it's a poem about going to a public sex theaters. 00:01:12.440 --> 00:01:12.940 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:01:12.940 --> 00:01:17.170 align:middle line:90% 00:01:17.170 --> 00:01:20.530 align:middle line:84% I don't think mine was as exciting as yours. 00:01:20.530 --> 00:01:23.830 align:middle line:84% Yeah, he contacted me out of the blue. 00:01:23.830 --> 00:01:26.680 align:middle line:84% I had no idea what this project was about. 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:32.890 align:middle line:84% And he wanted to base the photograph on "Six Months 00:01:32.890 --> 00:01:34.390 align:middle line:84% After Contemplating Suicide," which 00:01:34.390 --> 00:01:35.980 align:middle line:90% is the last poem of the book. 00:01:35.980 --> 00:01:43.270 align:middle line:84% And his idea was to go to a cemetery and for me 00:01:43.270 --> 00:01:47.630 align:middle line:84% to be playing with fireworks, which made total sense to me. 00:01:47.630 --> 00:01:50.800 align:middle line:84% I was like, oh, yeah, that's exactly right. 00:01:50.800 --> 00:01:56.500 align:middle line:84% And so I dressed up as if I were going to a funeral 00:01:56.500 --> 00:02:02.500 align:middle line:84% but in the picture I'm holding a firework and I'm smiling. 00:02:02.500 --> 00:02:05.230 align:middle line:84% The poem is about survival, and so I 00:02:05.230 --> 00:02:07.210 align:middle line:84% feel like the photograph also shows that. 00:02:07.210 --> 00:02:10.509 align:middle line:84% And it was a really fun experience. 00:02:10.509 --> 00:02:11.530 align:middle line:90% I was in New Jersey. 00:02:11.530 --> 00:02:15.460 align:middle line:84% I was living in New Jersey and the cemetery was actually 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:16.570 align:middle line:90% owned by his family. 00:02:16.570 --> 00:02:19.750 align:middle line:84% I don't know how people own cemeteries but they do. 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:22.570 align:middle line:90% So that was that. 00:02:22.570 --> 00:02:23.530 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:02:23.530 --> 00:02:29.435 align:middle line:84% Do you want to say there's materials out on a table 00:02:29.435 --> 00:02:31.900 align:middle line:84% and you can learn more about the Center for Creative 00:02:31.900 --> 00:02:35.950 align:middle line:84% Photography, and all of the poetry, and all of the poets. 00:02:35.950 --> 00:02:38.410 align:middle line:84% And you can see the specific photographs 00:02:38.410 --> 00:02:40.720 align:middle line:84% that they're talking about, and also they're 00:02:40.720 --> 00:02:44.290 align:middle line:84% in the Leaves of Grass book that's being sold, 00:02:44.290 --> 00:02:45.250 align:middle line:90% the hardback book. 00:02:45.250 --> 00:02:48.560 align:middle line:84% It's beautiful and it's a collection by B. A. Van Sise. 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:51.960 align:middle line:90% 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:53.910 align:middle line:84% I want to use that as an epigraph. 00:02:53.910 --> 00:02:56.370 align:middle line:84% I don't know how people own a cemetery, but they do. 00:02:56.370 --> 00:02:58.460 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:02:58.460 --> 00:03:00.280 align:middle line:90% I didn't know it was a thing. 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:02.940 align:middle line:90% Yeah, for sure. 00:03:02.940 --> 00:03:04.500 align:middle line:90% So wild. 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:05.838 align:middle line:90% There's a question over there. 00:03:05.838 --> 00:03:10.818 align:middle line:90% 00:03:10.818 --> 00:03:12.810 align:middle line:90% That was a really great reading. 00:03:12.810 --> 00:03:13.806 align:middle line:90% Yeah, for sure. 00:03:13.806 --> 00:03:20.300 align:middle line:90% 00:03:20.300 --> 00:03:22.670 align:middle line:84% I had a question for Erika, and maybe I'm 00:03:22.670 --> 00:03:26.360 align:middle line:84% extrapolating too much, but is there any symbolism 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:28.460 align:middle line:90% for eggs in your poetry. 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:32.030 align:middle line:84% Because you seem to mention them a bit. 00:03:32.030 --> 00:03:33.590 align:middle line:90% I guess I do. 00:03:33.590 --> 00:03:36.230 align:middle line:90% Thank you for observing that. 00:03:36.230 --> 00:03:39.650 align:middle line:84% I also apparently mention shit a lot-- 00:03:39.650 --> 00:03:43.675 align:middle line:84% I didn't realize-- and secretions and things 00:03:43.675 --> 00:03:44.300 align:middle line:90% of that nature. 00:03:44.300 --> 00:03:47.610 align:middle line:84% I think I'm really fascinated by things that come from the body, 00:03:47.610 --> 00:03:50.010 align:middle line:90% whether it be human or not. 00:03:50.010 --> 00:03:55.880 align:middle line:84% And so I think eggs are beautiful in a sense 00:03:55.880 --> 00:03:57.980 align:middle line:90% because they nourish. 00:03:57.980 --> 00:04:01.330 align:middle line:84% And I think they're also delicious. 00:04:01.330 --> 00:04:03.080 align:middle line:84% So I think that's why they're in the book. 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:04.370 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:04:04.370 --> 00:04:06.130 align:middle line:90% I appreciate that. 00:04:06.130 --> 00:04:06.755 align:middle line:90% Great question. 00:04:06.755 --> 00:04:22.710 align:middle line:90% 00:04:22.710 --> 00:04:25.310 align:middle line:90% This one's for sam. 00:04:25.310 --> 00:04:27.710 align:middle line:84% How much did you think of Animal Farm 00:04:27.710 --> 00:04:31.940 align:middle line:84% when you were considering the cover of the book? 00:04:31.940 --> 00:04:34.480 align:middle line:90% 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:36.040 align:middle line:90% Thank you for your question. 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:39.050 align:middle line:84% Also I feel like we're debating this whole presidency 00:04:39.050 --> 00:04:42.490 align:middle line:90% or something. 00:04:42.490 --> 00:04:47.560 align:middle line:84% I don't know, I found that on the internet on Pinterest-- 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:50.110 align:middle line:84% plug for Pinterest-- and she's like this really weird 00:04:50.110 --> 00:04:51.400 align:middle line:90% German artist who makes it. 00:04:51.400 --> 00:04:53.320 align:middle line:90% Mostly, she's a sculptor. 00:04:53.320 --> 00:04:58.660 align:middle line:84% But then I saw little human creatures with animal faces 00:04:58.660 --> 00:05:01.223 align:middle line:84% and I was like, that's my poetry. 00:05:01.223 --> 00:05:03.640 align:middle line:84% I didn't think of it for that, but for The Pig Book, which 00:05:03.640 --> 00:05:05.723 align:middle line:84% is this next book I'm writing called The Pig Book, 00:05:05.723 --> 00:05:08.170 align:middle line:84% there's an epigraph from Animal Farm, 00:05:08.170 --> 00:05:10.630 align:middle line:90% and it's the last line of it. 00:05:10.630 --> 00:05:13.480 align:middle line:84% "The pigs looked between the men and the pigs, and the pigs 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:16.190 align:middle line:84% to the men, and they couldn't tell the difference." 00:05:16.190 --> 00:05:18.790 align:middle line:84% And that's the opening of the thing. 00:05:18.790 --> 00:05:20.788 align:middle line:90% So I love that book. 00:05:20.788 --> 00:05:21.955 align:middle line:90% Thank you for your question. 00:05:21.955 --> 00:05:32.290 align:middle line:90% 00:05:32.290 --> 00:05:36.060 align:middle line:84% Thanks for your reading and a question 00:05:36.060 --> 00:05:42.900 align:middle line:84% I have is around the ways in which sex 00:05:42.900 --> 00:05:47.070 align:middle line:84% and sexuality just permeate throughout your collections. 00:05:47.070 --> 00:05:52.230 align:middle line:84% And the poems that you read tonight, 00:05:52.230 --> 00:05:55.230 align:middle line:84% curious about what other collections of poetry 00:05:55.230 --> 00:05:59.070 align:middle line:84% your prose that engage the images, 00:05:59.070 --> 00:06:03.060 align:middle line:84% themes around sexuality that just stayed with you, 00:06:03.060 --> 00:06:07.930 align:middle line:84% or that haunt you as you write your own works of sexuality. 00:06:07.930 --> 00:06:08.430 align:middle line:90% Sure. 00:06:08.430 --> 00:06:12.960 align:middle line:90% 00:06:12.960 --> 00:06:13.650 align:middle line:90% Great question. 00:06:13.650 --> 00:06:14.700 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:06:14.700 --> 00:06:22.650 align:middle line:84% I feel that Sharon Olds was very instrumental in my development 00:06:22.650 --> 00:06:23.220 align:middle line:90% as a writer. 00:06:23.220 --> 00:06:26.110 align:middle line:84% I started reading her when I was 14. 00:06:26.110 --> 00:06:28.950 align:middle line:84% And when I read her, I realized I 00:06:28.950 --> 00:06:34.950 align:middle line:84% had permission to write about the body in all 00:06:34.950 --> 00:06:37.590 align:middle line:90% of its beautiful and ugly glory. 00:06:37.590 --> 00:06:42.330 align:middle line:84% And I think that just really opened up a world to me 00:06:42.330 --> 00:06:44.100 align:middle line:90% that I didn't know. 00:06:44.100 --> 00:06:49.950 align:middle line:84% And recently, Ada Limón, The Carrying, 00:06:49.950 --> 00:06:54.000 align:middle line:84% I feel like that book is really beautiful in the way she 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:00.420 align:middle line:84% depicts desire and connection to the body. 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:04.080 align:middle line:84% But there are just so many amazing feminist writers 00:07:04.080 --> 00:07:11.730 align:middle line:84% that are writing about wanting and seeking pleasure. 00:07:11.730 --> 00:07:16.290 align:middle line:84% And I feel like for so long we were told 00:07:16.290 --> 00:07:18.040 align:middle line:90% we weren't allowed to do that. 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:21.330 align:middle line:84% And things are really shifting on. 00:07:21.330 --> 00:07:22.560 align:middle line:90% And I find it very exciting. 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:26.580 align:middle line:90% 00:07:26.580 --> 00:07:28.090 align:middle line:90% Thank you for that question. 00:07:28.090 --> 00:07:32.600 align:middle line:84% I'm only interested in dirty books, so I love that. 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.860 align:middle line:84% I think the first text that gave me 00:07:34.860 --> 00:07:36.750 align:middle line:84% any kind of interesting permission 00:07:36.750 --> 00:07:39.720 align:middle line:84% to approach it in my writing was this Allen Ginsberg poem 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:41.850 align:middle line:84% called "Sphincter," which is like just about 00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:45.240 align:middle line:84% his asshole and traces his lineage and history 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:47.460 align:middle line:84% of moving through the world through like what's 00:07:47.460 --> 00:07:48.990 align:middle line:90% entered his asshole. 00:07:48.990 --> 00:07:51.120 align:middle line:84% And I think for being like a little queer who 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.330 align:middle line:84% like wanted to die because of particularly the way 00:07:54.330 --> 00:07:56.280 align:middle line:84% culture talks about anal pleasure and desire, 00:07:56.280 --> 00:07:58.280 align:middle line:84% that was like a moment of like, oh I could write 00:07:58.280 --> 00:08:00.540 align:middle line:90% a whole book about the anus. 00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:05.460 align:middle line:84% And that's not just dirty as a politic, right? 00:08:05.460 --> 00:08:06.780 align:middle line:90% So yeah, I think about that. 00:08:06.780 --> 00:08:08.760 align:middle line:84% I'm thinking about the Uses of the Erotic 00:08:08.760 --> 00:08:10.740 align:middle line:84% by Audre Lorde, which really helped 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:14.100 align:middle line:84% me think through centering the erotic as a place of power, 00:08:14.100 --> 00:08:20.370 align:middle line:84% and ways of dismantling hegemonic structural harm. 00:08:20.370 --> 00:08:22.050 align:middle line:90% Who else? 00:08:22.050 --> 00:08:24.330 align:middle line:84% Oh yeah, there's basically a Mark Doty line in one 00:08:24.330 --> 00:08:25.620 align:middle line:90% of the poems I read. 00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:29.940 align:middle line:84% You all know that poem "Homo Will Not Inherit?" 00:08:29.940 --> 00:08:33.360 align:middle line:84% It's just about a city at first, and then this one guy saying, 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:34.740 align:middle line:90% I'm going to punish your mouth. 00:08:34.740 --> 00:08:39.390 align:middle line:84% And there's just something about that straightforward address 00:08:39.390 --> 00:08:41.760 align:middle line:84% of action, and desire, and eroticism 00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:47.700 align:middle line:84% that feels set beside, more lifted 00:08:47.700 --> 00:08:51.470 align:middle line:84% language that feels really powerful to me. 00:08:51.470 --> 00:08:53.220 align:middle line:84% I was writing things down my arm because I 00:08:53.220 --> 00:08:55.680 align:middle line:90% have so many little delights. 00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:56.610 align:middle line:90% But yeah, so many. 00:08:56.610 --> 00:08:59.820 align:middle line:84% And also the lineage and history of like repressed queer 00:08:59.820 --> 00:09:02.340 align:middle line:84% writers, like Hart Crane or early folks who 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:04.140 align:middle line:84% find ways to talk about the body and desire 00:09:04.140 --> 00:09:06.360 align:middle line:84% but need to cloak it in their grandmother's 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.430 align:middle line:90% letters or something. 00:09:08.430 --> 00:09:10.240 align:middle line:90% Anyway, yes. 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:10.740 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:09:10.740 --> 00:09:15.870 align:middle line:90% 00:09:15.870 --> 00:09:18.000 align:middle line:90% One more question. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:18.510 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:09:18.510 --> 00:09:26.230 align:middle line:90% 00:09:26.230 --> 00:09:30.130 align:middle line:84% Poetry tends to be a very vulnerable sense, especially 00:09:30.130 --> 00:09:32.290 align:middle line:84% when you're writing it, and both of you guys 00:09:32.290 --> 00:09:35.260 align:middle line:84% have a lot of vulnerability in your poetry collections. 00:09:35.260 --> 00:09:38.740 align:middle line:84% How did you become comfortable with putting that out 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:41.290 align:middle line:90% for the whole public to see? 00:09:41.290 --> 00:09:44.710 align:middle line:84% Was there a process, or was there just a set of mind 00:09:44.710 --> 00:09:47.740 align:middle line:84% that you overcame to be OK with it? 00:09:47.740 --> 00:09:51.250 align:middle line:90% 00:09:51.250 --> 00:09:52.780 align:middle line:90% It's not always comfortable. 00:09:52.780 --> 00:09:54.970 align:middle line:90% It shouldn't be comfortable. 00:09:54.970 --> 00:09:56.830 align:middle line:84% I guess that's what vulnerability is, right, 00:09:56.830 --> 00:09:59.800 align:middle line:84% where you are sharing a piece of yourself 00:09:59.800 --> 00:10:01.300 align:middle line:90% that you're afraid to share. 00:10:01.300 --> 00:10:06.190 align:middle line:84% And I think that the best writing, the writing that I 00:10:06.190 --> 00:10:10.120 align:middle line:84% love, is writing that puts everything on the line 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:17.020 align:middle line:84% that like gives you everything, that 00:10:17.020 --> 00:10:23.050 align:middle line:84% doesn't care about the ego, that is truthful even when 00:10:23.050 --> 00:10:24.610 align:middle line:90% it's ugly. 00:10:24.610 --> 00:10:26.650 align:middle line:84% That's what resonates with me and that's 00:10:26.650 --> 00:10:29.240 align:middle line:90% what I want to do as well. 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:31.910 align:middle line:90% I think that's really important. 00:10:31.910 --> 00:10:34.000 align:middle line:84% I feel like if you're not being vulnerable then 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:41.990 align:middle line:84% you're not really getting into what it means to be human. 00:10:41.990 --> 00:10:47.012 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I think one of my first poetry teachers-- 00:10:47.012 --> 00:10:49.220 align:middle line:84% I didn't actually learn from her-- was this poet Tara 00:10:49.220 --> 00:10:51.210 align:middle line:90% Hardy in Seattle. 00:10:51.210 --> 00:10:54.080 align:middle line:84% And she would always say write into what terrifies you most, 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:59.270 align:middle line:84% and through that you'll find the most strange and liberatory 00:10:59.270 --> 00:11:01.850 align:middle line:90% work in your own poem process. 00:11:01.850 --> 00:11:06.230 align:middle line:84% And that's been really useful and truthful for me. 00:11:06.230 --> 00:11:10.010 align:middle line:84% I think I'm only interested in work that scares me 00:11:10.010 --> 00:11:12.980 align:middle line:90% at least when I first make it. 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:15.660 align:middle line:84% I think what ends up scaring me most, 00:11:15.660 --> 00:11:18.977 align:middle line:84% though is when family looks at it. 00:11:18.977 --> 00:11:20.810 align:middle line:84% There was a whole minute when my mom refused 00:11:20.810 --> 00:11:22.040 align:middle line:84% to come to any of my readings because I 00:11:22.040 --> 00:11:23.660 align:middle line:84% had this poem about like giving birth 00:11:23.660 --> 00:11:26.240 align:middle line:90% to a snake in a bathroom stall. 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.410 align:middle line:90% And she was like, I'm good. 00:11:27.410 --> 00:11:31.430 align:middle line:84% But I think that moment was really important. 00:11:31.430 --> 00:11:34.610 align:middle line:84% It's a true experience, poetically true. 00:11:34.610 --> 00:11:37.220 align:middle line:84% But it was important for me to say that work. 00:11:37.220 --> 00:11:41.270 align:middle line:84% And then that vulnerability and openness with my mom 00:11:41.270 --> 00:11:43.460 align:middle line:84% ended up really transforming our relationship. 00:11:43.460 --> 00:11:45.800 align:middle line:84% She was like, I need some time away 00:11:45.800 --> 00:11:50.030 align:middle line:84% and then now we can talk about your experience and your body 00:11:50.030 --> 00:11:51.860 align:middle line:90% in this world. 00:11:51.860 --> 00:11:54.760 align:middle line:90% Yeah, cool.