WEBVTT

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Hi, I had the good
fortune of reading

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an essay you wrote about the
poem, "It was the animals"

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and you talked a little bit
about some of your drafting

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for that particular poem.

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And I just wondered
if you wouldn't

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mind talking a little bit
about the process of writing.

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How you go from your first draft
perhaps to a finished product.

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Yeah well I'll talk
about that one.

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I mean it changes depending
on what I'm writing

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or what's happening in
my life, but there's

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a poem I wrote called, "It was
the animals" and excuse me.

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This is like sure.

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But it was what
happened was my brother,

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he came over to my home.

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And so this is I
pull from my life.

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I'm not, I'm not
one of those people

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who are ashamed of
autobiography like everything

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I would ever write even if
I'm lying is autobiography.

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Like it's coming out of my head
and I have one head and I have

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one set of eyes and
one life to pull from.

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And so my brother came
over and he and this

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is very different
from my first book

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where I was away writing it.

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So I had this comfort of
space to write through,

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but I'm home now.

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And he brought a--

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this piece of wood
and it was tied up

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in all of these
plastic grocery bags.

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And he brought it
and he was holding it

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like it was like it was a baby
you know he had this duffel bag

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and it was inside
and he brought it.

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And you know he set
it down on my coffee

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or I mean on my dining table.

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And he carefully unzipped
it and he pulled out

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all of these things and it was
like layer on layering each bag

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and he told me that
he had the Ark.

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Like that he thought he had
the Ark like a piece of the Ark

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and he was completely serious.

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And you get stuck
in that reality

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that where you have to be able
to still love your brother

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and so you're willing I
think sometimes to step out

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of your own reality.

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And even though you couldn't
possibly meet him in his,

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there seems to be
this other space

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we create where we're
allowed to meet them

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so that we can still love them
or so you can still be human.

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And you still sit here
and say, hey, I'm--

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I have compassion.

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Right?

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I'm not bad because I love him.

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Right?

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You know and so he was
really serious about this Ark

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and he was telling me like
he was worried for me.

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Like he was bringing it to
save me this piece of the Ark

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and it had like it had
been like rooted so

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there was like
this design on it.

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And he thought he was
reading it like he

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kept running his hands
over it and reading it.

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And I mean I was just I had
been writing so my notebook was

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there it was open.

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And I didn't argue
with him I just

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like in order for him
to be my brother I

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couldn't argue with him.

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And as soon as
you argue then you

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know, and so with
this poem like this

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came from a real
life experience.

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It was a painful
experience and you

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know your brother brings
over the Ark, it's like wow,

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you know and so I
wrote this I just

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wrote verbatim what he said.

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Like as soon as
he left my house I

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wrote down exactly what
our conversation was like.

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And it was so, it was so surreal
that it was like it was there

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floating in my head.

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So I didn't like I can't
remember exactly what he

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said every single thing.

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And so I just I wrote that down.

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And then I just wrote
like a quick sketch of it.

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And I didn't really
know what to do with it.

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It was about 2 and
1/2 pages long.

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I don't think it's
not in this notebook,

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but it's like 2
and 1/2 pages long

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and like it usually
looks like this.

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Like this is what, this is a
sketch of one thing right now.

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But it was just like that and
then like another half page.

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And I just left it there
because it just unsettled me it

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kind of made me
sick a little bit.

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And maybe what's worse than
me writing about my brother

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is that he like insisted
I take pictures of this.

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He's like you've got to take.

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You've got to see this.

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You've got to.

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They're still on my phone.

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I mean what are
you going, I don't

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know what to do with them.

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I guess I should
have deleted them,

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but there's that
writer part of me

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and this is what the
essay was talking about

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was that betrayer part of me.

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That's like, hey
this is my story.

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I'm going to tell it, but then
you think, well, maybe it's

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not my story to tell.

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And I think that's one of
the tough things about being

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a writer writing about family
or telling stories is that.

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But a lot of the stuff so
it was sat in my notebook

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and then probably like
three or four months later,

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I needed a poem
for Poetry Magazine

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and I didn't have one
in it so I was just

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going back through my notebook
and I saw these pages.

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And I go back
through my notebooks

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and I see what I've sketched
out and I just tag them.

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And it was strange to see
how linear the sketch was

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that I wrote out because it
was based on our conversation.

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And so it was already
like naturally narrative.

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And so I took that and I
just built the Ark around it.

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You know like around
that painful moment

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and I let I put all my
emotions into image.

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And that's what
usually my process

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is I try to find the images
that can hold and contain

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my emotions.

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And all of my work
happens in revision.

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Like it's a rare occasion when
I sit down and write a poem.

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You know I really
rely on a notebook

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and I have it like
with me everywhere.

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You know I wrote stuff
driving up here, which

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I shouldn't have been doing.

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So, but I mean I
figure a few less

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cacti on the side of the road.

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No, I'm just kidding.

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I'm just kidding really
I was like, what.

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[LAUGHTER]

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But yeah like so
that's my process

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is usually like a quick
sketch of something

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because I often don't
have a lot of time.

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And then I rely on
my images and then

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I build more images on top.

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But that's how
that poem you know

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I actually looked at
the pictures again

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and I could see that my
brother had like pipe

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blisters on his fingers.

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Like I could see how swollen
they were in the pictures.

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And the pictures are really
weird because it's blurred

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because he wouldn't he was
moving so much and you know

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and he just he thought
it was the Ark.

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You know and he was so
disappointed with me when he

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left that I didn't.

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And so I just built these.

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Built the animals
of the Ark around it

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you know and I'm so glad that
movie Noah hadn't come out

00:06:44.520 --> 00:06:49.740 align:middle line:84%
before because that
bad movie Noah.

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What an opportunity they ruined
when they made that movie.

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But yeah so I'm glad that
I hadn't come out yet.

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So I got to make
up my own like what

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are the animals that I
find to be fantastical

00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:06.450 align:middle line:84%
and so they were all
oxen and actually we

00:07:06.450 --> 00:07:11.370 align:middle line:84%
had just come with John and
Susan to the Desert Museum.

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And so another page in my
notebook was about the ocelots

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and I had written that their
faces were like mathematically

00:07:18.210 --> 00:07:19.630 align:middle line:90%
put together.

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And so in the poem,
their mathematical faces

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is what came out.

00:07:23.670 --> 00:07:27.180 align:middle line:84%
But yeah so you just I
make broken things whole

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I think sometimes in the poems.

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So that was a long
winded answer.

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I'm sorry.

00:07:33.410 --> 00:07:36.120 align:middle line:84%
I think we probably
have time for one more.

00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:37.020 align:middle line:90%
Just quick one.

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So private time for
one more evidence.

00:07:39.690 --> 00:07:43.020 align:middle line:84%
About the inner workings
of a Polaroid camera.

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Are there light bulbs in it?

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There's a flash.

00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:48.870 align:middle line:90%
So there must be.

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You can see that in
that little square.

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OK.

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Right?

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I mean you should go home and
take one apart but, just don't

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call me to get back together.

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And there's a baby.

00:08:04.450 --> 00:08:08.480 align:middle line:84%
The baby has a question you
can't leave the baby out.

00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:11.643 align:middle line:84%
You have such amazing
images, especially

00:08:11.643 --> 00:08:12.810 align:middle line:90%
in reference to your mother.

00:08:12.810 --> 00:08:15.580 align:middle line:84%
I'm curious about
your family members

00:08:15.580 --> 00:08:18.100 align:middle line:84%
having read your poetry
especially your brother

00:08:18.100 --> 00:08:21.120 align:middle line:84%
if he's ever read your
poetry or any family member

00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:23.470 align:middle line:90%
and their reactions to it.

00:08:23.470 --> 00:08:25.800 align:middle line:84%
Yeah she was talking
about the imagery.

00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:27.460 align:middle line:84%
Well, we have a
joke in my family

00:08:27.460 --> 00:08:30.730 align:middle line:84%
now since the book came out
as like when my brother was

00:08:30.730 --> 00:08:34.510 align:middle line:84%
an asshole will say
or you know when

00:08:34.510 --> 00:08:36.490 align:middle line:84%
my brother pissed me
off like my sisters

00:08:36.490 --> 00:08:39.940 align:middle line:90%
are pretty funny about that.

00:08:39.940 --> 00:08:42.610 align:middle line:84%
But you know it's
strange because I

00:08:42.610 --> 00:08:44.680 align:middle line:84%
think that when
people see the poems

00:08:44.680 --> 00:08:48.497 align:middle line:84%
they think immediately that
this is my brother, my real life

00:08:48.497 --> 00:08:49.580 align:middle line:90%
brother I'm writing about.

00:08:49.580 --> 00:08:55.180 align:middle line:84%
And the I is exactly Natalie,
but they're all masks.

00:08:55.180 --> 00:08:57.880 align:middle line:84%
Even the I. We talked
about this today.

00:08:57.880 --> 00:09:00.490 align:middle line:84%
The I in the poems
is it's not me,

00:09:00.490 --> 00:09:02.950 align:middle line:84%
but it's the way I can get to
my emotions and the brother

00:09:02.950 --> 00:09:03.700 align:middle line:90%
in here.

00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:06.550 align:middle line:84%
Like obviously my brother
is in the Halloween costume.

00:09:06.550 --> 00:09:09.790 align:middle line:84%
He's not an Aztec, but
that's the emotional brother

00:09:09.790 --> 00:09:10.610 align:middle line:90%
that I know.

00:09:10.610 --> 00:09:11.950 align:middle line:90%
And so I've built him.

00:09:11.950 --> 00:09:14.590 align:middle line:84%
And why from the outside
I think it's actually

00:09:14.590 --> 00:09:18.970 align:middle line:84%
more painful seeming,
but from the inside

00:09:18.970 --> 00:09:21.970 align:middle line:84%
with my family like
with my sister,

00:09:21.970 --> 00:09:23.800 align:middle line:84%
my sister was
talking about this.

00:09:23.800 --> 00:09:26.510 align:middle line:84%
Like my mother when she read
this she said, she was upset.

00:09:26.510 --> 00:09:29.660 align:middle line:84%
And she said it's just that
none of it happened that way.

00:09:29.660 --> 00:09:32.330 align:middle line:84%
And then my sister, my little
sister immediately said,

00:09:32.330 --> 00:09:34.820 align:middle line:84%
what do you mean mom that's
exactly how it happened.

00:09:34.820 --> 00:09:41.830 align:middle line:84%
And so I think those images
that they're not real.

00:09:41.830 --> 00:09:44.050 align:middle line:84%
It's not my real brother
he can be the Aztec,

00:09:44.050 --> 00:09:45.490 align:middle line:84%
he can be those
things that let us

00:09:45.490 --> 00:09:48.910 align:middle line:84%
feel what we feel for
him without tearing down

00:09:48.910 --> 00:09:50.830 align:middle line:90%
my real life brother.

00:09:50.830 --> 00:09:54.820 align:middle line:84%
And so I think the
imagery did a lot of work

00:09:54.820 --> 00:09:58.180 align:middle line:84%
to hide to hide me
the speaker and even

00:09:58.180 --> 00:10:02.800 align:middle line:84%
to hide my family you know,
like in the poem like my mother

00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:07.030 align:middle line:84%
and father become like a broken
Borges and I gouge Saint Lucia.

00:10:07.030 --> 00:10:11.230 align:middle line:84%
You know like so I didn't
have to write about my mother

00:10:11.230 --> 00:10:11.800 align:middle line:90%
and father.

00:10:11.800 --> 00:10:15.010 align:middle line:84%
I could write about
that experience

00:10:15.010 --> 00:10:18.790 align:middle line:84%
that emotional experience,
but it is painful for them.

00:10:18.790 --> 00:10:20.530 align:middle line:84%
Like there's a poem
in the book called,

00:10:20.530 --> 00:10:23.380 align:middle line:84%
"No more cake here"
when I imagine

00:10:23.380 --> 00:10:25.450 align:middle line:90%
a funeral party for my brother.

00:10:25.450 --> 00:10:28.780 align:middle line:84%
If my brother were to die
like we would have a party.

00:10:28.780 --> 00:10:32.050 align:middle line:84%
And of course like I was shocked
when I wrote that to find

00:10:32.050 --> 00:10:34.030 align:middle line:90%
I could go there emotionally.

00:10:34.030 --> 00:10:38.770 align:middle line:84%
But what I meant
was that, if we did

00:10:38.770 --> 00:10:41.170 align:middle line:84%
get that phone call,
what I was exploring

00:10:41.170 --> 00:10:44.470 align:middle line:84%
was the idea of finally
being able to rest.

00:10:44.470 --> 00:10:47.290 align:middle line:84%
And the relief we might
feel to never have

00:10:47.290 --> 00:10:48.670 align:middle line:90%
to worry about him again.

00:10:48.670 --> 00:10:50.380 align:middle line:84%
To never have to
wonder if he was OK

00:10:50.380 --> 00:10:51.978 align:middle line:84%
or to wonder if he
hurt my parents.

00:10:51.978 --> 00:10:53.270 align:middle line:90%
So that's what I was exploring.

00:10:53.270 --> 00:10:57.790 align:middle line:84%
But I have a little brother who
saw that the images in the poem

00:10:57.790 --> 00:10:59.560 align:middle line:90%
and he hated it.

00:10:59.560 --> 00:11:01.270 align:middle line:84%
Like he couldn't
get over it he kept

00:11:01.270 --> 00:11:03.310 align:middle line:84%
saying like what do
you mean do you wish,

00:11:03.310 --> 00:11:04.970 align:middle line:90%
you wish Richie was dead.

00:11:04.970 --> 00:11:07.010 align:middle line:90%
Like he couldn't separate it.

00:11:07.010 --> 00:11:10.960 align:middle line:84%
And so I think sometimes
the images let us--

00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:13.870 align:middle line:84%
they let my family see
and feel it in a way

00:11:13.870 --> 00:11:16.640 align:middle line:84%
that we hadn't because
we don't talk about it.

00:11:16.640 --> 00:11:19.730 align:middle line:84%
And sometimes the images
can be more powerful.

00:11:19.730 --> 00:11:22.610 align:middle line:84%
But then sometimes they let
us hide behind them as well.

00:11:22.610 --> 00:11:24.670 align:middle line:84%
So it's been an
interesting thing for me

00:11:24.670 --> 00:11:27.580 align:middle line:84%
I think to realize
even when I'm hiding

00:11:27.580 --> 00:11:31.390 align:middle line:84%
or when an image actually
lets me feel it more.

00:11:31.390 --> 00:11:35.020 align:middle line:84%
But yeah, that's-- yeah, I
don't think I answered that one

00:11:35.020 --> 00:11:35.920 align:middle line:90%
either.

00:11:35.920 --> 00:11:40.008 align:middle line:84%
Did you expect your brother
that you like felt [INAUDIBLE]??

00:11:40.008 --> 00:11:42.940 align:middle line:90%


00:11:42.940 --> 00:11:44.590 align:middle line:90%
Yeah I mean he's read it.

00:11:44.590 --> 00:11:47.170 align:middle line:84%
Like one of the
most awful things

00:11:47.170 --> 00:11:50.020 align:middle line:84%
is when he like carried
the book around with him.

00:11:50.020 --> 00:11:53.230 align:middle line:84%
And was like proud of me
like not in his right mind,

00:11:53.230 --> 00:11:54.760 align:middle line:90%
but proud of me.

00:11:54.760 --> 00:11:58.450 align:middle line:84%
Like taking it to people
because I had a book and then to

00:11:58.450 --> 00:12:01.030 align:middle line:90%
that was a sickening part.

00:12:01.030 --> 00:12:03.730 align:middle line:90%
And then like he's read poems.

00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:09.730 align:middle line:84%
Like he read the poem When
My Brother was an Aztec

00:12:09.730 --> 00:12:11.200 align:middle line:84%
and when it came
out in a journal,

00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.800 align:middle line:84%
he-- my father keeps things
in this hutch my mother has.

00:12:14.800 --> 00:12:18.160 align:middle line:84%
But he took the
journal and he again

00:12:18.160 --> 00:12:19.960 align:middle line:84%
was like carrying
it around and I

00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:22.930 align:middle line:84%
guess one time when he
sobered up a little,

00:12:22.930 --> 00:12:25.000 align:middle line:84%
he must have read it
because for a few weeks

00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.828 align:middle line:90%
he called me peacock shit.

00:12:26.828 --> 00:12:28.120 align:middle line:90%
Like he didn't call me Natalie.

00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:32.050 align:middle line:84%
He didn't even speak to me other
than to say like, peacock shit.

00:12:32.050 --> 00:12:33.962 align:middle line:90%
You know and he just be like.

00:12:33.962 --> 00:12:35.920 align:middle line:84%
And so you know I know
he's read it, but I just

00:12:35.920 --> 00:12:40.210 align:middle line:84%
he's just not it doesn't
make much sense to him

00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:41.890 align:middle line:90%
most of the time I think.

00:12:41.890 --> 00:12:45.730 align:middle line:84%
He also says I owe him
$6,000 because I wrote

00:12:45.730 --> 00:12:48.820 align:middle line:90%
a book about him he says so.

00:12:48.820 --> 00:12:51.670 align:middle line:90%


00:12:51.670 --> 00:12:56.120 align:middle line:84%
I'm still waiting
to make $6,000 off.

00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:59.460 align:middle line:84%
Yeah thank you though
for your question.

00:12:59.460 --> 00:13:01.637 align:middle line:90%
It seems like a good spot.

00:13:01.637 --> 00:13:02.720 align:middle line:90%
We'll end on peacock shit.

00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:04.160 align:middle line:90%
Thank you for coming.

00:13:04.160 --> 00:13:06.020 align:middle line:90%
Thank you and buy a book.

00:13:06.020 --> 00:13:07.200 align:middle line:90%
Yeah thank you guys so much.

00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:07.970 align:middle line:90%
I appreciate it.

00:13:07.970 --> 00:13:10.720 align:middle line:90%
[APPLAUSE]

00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:12.000 align:middle line:90%