WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.945 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:00:00.945 --> 00:00:07.390 align:middle line:90% 00:00:07.390 --> 00:00:08.460 align:middle line:90% Hello. 00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:09.840 align:middle line:90% I'm a part of a poetry class. 00:00:09.840 --> 00:00:11.970 align:middle line:90% And we were reading "Bluets." 00:00:11.970 --> 00:00:17.490 align:middle line:84% And so we were having a fun time trying to actually tease apart 00:00:17.490 --> 00:00:19.570 align:middle line:84% what blue actually meant and if there 00:00:19.570 --> 00:00:22.950 align:middle line:84% were any like metaphors or blue as an allegory 00:00:22.950 --> 00:00:24.960 align:middle line:90% or did it mean anything. 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:30.300 align:middle line:84% So I guess the question is what does blue actually mean 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:33.150 align:middle line:84% or should we take it at face value? 00:00:33.150 --> 00:00:33.650 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:00:33.650 --> 00:00:37.483 align:middle line:90% 00:00:37.483 --> 00:00:38.900 align:middle line:84% I mean, there's a part in "Bluets" 00:00:38.900 --> 00:00:40.400 align:middle line:84% where I say I'm trying to figure out 00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:42.272 align:middle line:90% what blue means apart from-- 00:00:42.272 --> 00:00:44.480 align:middle line:84% what it means to me apart from its meaning, you know? 00:00:44.480 --> 00:00:47.810 align:middle line:84% So color is a frequency of light, you know? 00:00:47.810 --> 00:00:49.880 align:middle line:84% And as I say somewhere else in the book, 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:52.070 align:middle line:84% like a honeybee doesn't see the same color as it's 00:00:52.070 --> 00:00:53.780 align:middle line:84% going towards the flower like as we see. 00:00:53.780 --> 00:00:58.520 align:middle line:84% So essentially, color is intensely personal both to us 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:00.920 align:middle line:84% as a species, the way we see it all together, but also 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:02.960 align:middle line:84% to each person in color blind people 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:04.860 align:middle line:84% and sightless people, all kinds of things. 00:01:04.860 --> 00:01:07.880 align:middle line:84% So I think part of my attraction to writing 00:01:07.880 --> 00:01:12.180 align:middle line:84% about this subject was that it's both a very abstract concept 00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:15.980 align:middle line:84% and is also deeply, deeply subjective, and personal. 00:01:15.980 --> 00:01:17.720 align:middle line:90% It's personal. 00:01:17.720 --> 00:01:20.180 align:middle line:84% It's a book to me that's about perception, 00:01:20.180 --> 00:01:25.220 align:middle line:84% but it's also about my own perception and impressibility 00:01:25.220 --> 00:01:28.117 align:middle line:84% by things around me, including color. 00:01:28.117 --> 00:01:29.608 align:middle line:90% If that makes sense. 00:01:29.608 --> 00:01:47.500 align:middle line:90% 00:01:47.500 --> 00:01:50.100 align:middle line:84% Does anyone-- someone in the back, good. 00:01:50.100 --> 00:01:51.330 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:01:51.330 --> 00:01:52.336 align:middle line:90% You do [INAUDIBLE]. 00:01:52.336 --> 00:01:57.728 align:middle line:90% 00:01:57.728 --> 00:02:00.020 align:middle line:84% This is a very simple question, but I was just curious, 00:02:00.020 --> 00:02:01.940 align:middle line:84% does the book that you're working on now 00:02:01.940 --> 00:02:03.743 align:middle line:90% have a title or a working title? 00:02:03.743 --> 00:02:05.660 align:middle line:84% No, we were just talking about that at dinner. 00:02:05.660 --> 00:02:07.535 align:middle line:84% I think because of the passage I read to you, 00:02:07.535 --> 00:02:10.927 align:middle line:84% I call it sometimes the Argonauts, but it has-- 00:02:10.927 --> 00:02:13.010 align:middle line:84% but I don't know what it's going to be titled yet. 00:02:13.010 --> 00:02:16.835 align:middle line:90% So we shall see. 00:02:16.835 --> 00:02:19.454 align:middle line:84% If you have a good idea, you're welcome [INAUDIBLE]. 00:02:19.454 --> 00:02:27.690 align:middle line:90% 00:02:27.690 --> 00:02:28.190 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:02:28.190 --> 00:02:31.220 align:middle line:84% So my sister and I have a question. 00:02:31.220 --> 00:02:36.290 align:middle line:84% When you collect these quotes, you collect these ideas, 00:02:36.290 --> 00:02:38.910 align:middle line:84% and you kind of know how you feel about them at the moment. 00:02:38.910 --> 00:02:42.000 align:middle line:84% Well, if you know because it just for "Bluets." 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.010 align:middle line:84% So I'm assuming that's not always the case. 00:02:46.010 --> 00:02:49.040 align:middle line:84% Do you test them out on people you know? 00:02:49.040 --> 00:02:52.032 align:middle line:84% Do you apply them to the people around you? 00:02:52.032 --> 00:02:52.990 align:middle line:90% Because it seems like-- 00:02:52.990 --> 00:02:53.990 align:middle line:90% The quotations you mean? 00:02:53.990 --> 00:02:55.715 align:middle line:84% Well, not just the quotes, but the-- 00:02:55.715 --> 00:02:56.900 align:middle line:90% Like the theories, you mean? 00:02:56.900 --> 00:02:59.060 align:middle line:84% Yeah, the theories and the social ideas, I guess. 00:02:59.060 --> 00:03:01.670 align:middle line:90% 00:03:01.670 --> 00:03:04.498 align:middle line:90% You mean test them out like-- 00:03:04.498 --> 00:03:06.290 align:middle line:84% just like think about situations in my life 00:03:06.290 --> 00:03:08.360 align:middle line:84% and see if the ideas stack up against them, 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:09.680 align:middle line:90% or that kind of thing? 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:12.442 align:middle line:84% Yeah, like do you apply them to the people you know and see 00:03:12.442 --> 00:03:14.150 align:middle line:84% if you feel as though they're so correct? 00:03:14.150 --> 00:03:17.377 align:middle line:84% You know, I mean I'm not really-- 00:03:17.377 --> 00:03:19.460 align:middle line:84% I mean, obviously, from everything I've just read, 00:03:19.460 --> 00:03:21.127 align:middle line:84% it's like I'm very invested in this kind 00:03:21.127 --> 00:03:23.750 align:middle line:84% of cerebral bodily mash up, you know? 00:03:23.750 --> 00:03:25.400 align:middle line:84% And because I'm so invested in it, 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.540 align:middle line:84% I think I can't really even see ideas of something to test out 00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:30.290 align:middle line:90% because like-- 00:03:30.290 --> 00:03:32.082 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think it keeps this phrase, which 00:03:32.082 --> 00:03:34.710 align:middle line:84% was like you have to feel ideas on your pulses or something. 00:03:34.710 --> 00:03:36.410 align:middle line:90% It's like-- that's just-- 00:03:36.410 --> 00:03:40.362 align:middle line:90% 00:03:40.362 --> 00:03:42.320 align:middle line:84% If I read a quote that seems interesting to me, 00:03:42.320 --> 00:03:43.820 align:middle line:84% it might make like my blood quicken. 00:03:43.820 --> 00:03:44.695 align:middle line:90% You know what I mean? 00:03:44.695 --> 00:03:46.250 align:middle line:84% Like my pulse get excited, I mean. 00:03:46.250 --> 00:03:47.000 align:middle line:90% It's like it's a very-- 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:48.590 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's all very mixed up to me. 00:03:48.590 --> 00:03:52.760 align:middle line:84% So I think that there's a little bit more of a flow 00:03:52.760 --> 00:03:57.200 align:middle line:84% I guess, if that makes any sense than testing that might allow, 00:03:57.200 --> 00:03:57.700 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:03:57.700 --> 00:04:10.930 align:middle line:90% 00:04:10.930 --> 00:04:11.430 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:04:11.430 --> 00:04:16.050 align:middle line:84% So I was just wondering where do you get your inspiration from 00:04:16.050 --> 00:04:21.209 align:middle line:84% and if there are any specific authors that you look up to? 00:04:21.209 --> 00:04:22.170 align:middle line:90% Kind of broad. 00:04:22.170 --> 00:04:24.420 align:middle line:84% Well, it's broad, but it's also-- 00:04:24.420 --> 00:04:27.220 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think a long time ago, I kind of-- 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:28.720 align:middle line:84% I don't really do this in my poetry. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:32.173 align:middle line:84% So much of poetry often kind of cannibalizes or subsumes ideas. 00:04:32.173 --> 00:04:34.590 align:middle line:84% And I like to write in kind of a plain language idiom that 00:04:34.590 --> 00:04:35.882 align:middle line:90% doesn't bear the marks of them. 00:04:35.882 --> 00:04:39.360 align:middle line:84% But in the prose that I write, I very typically show my hand 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:40.230 align:middle line:90% like entirely. 00:04:40.230 --> 00:04:41.700 align:middle line:84% So everybody that I just mentioned, 00:04:41.700 --> 00:04:44.158 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's kind of a way of cheating out of the question, 00:04:44.158 --> 00:04:46.110 align:middle line:90% but are all the people that-- 00:04:46.110 --> 00:04:47.670 align:middle line:90% they're my family. 00:04:47.670 --> 00:04:48.888 align:middle line:90% They're my chorus. 00:04:48.888 --> 00:04:49.680 align:middle line:90% They're my friends. 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.590 align:middle line:84% They're my-- I was calling them, I 00:04:52.590 --> 00:04:54.600 align:middle line:84% think in Brian's class, my patron saints. 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:56.822 align:middle line:84% Like an ancient book, I feel like I write-- 00:04:56.822 --> 00:04:59.280 align:middle line:84% I mean, maybe this is just my failure of originality, which 00:04:59.280 --> 00:05:02.410 align:middle line:84% is fine because I've made peace with that as my style-- 00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:02.947 align:middle line:90% as my style. 00:05:02.947 --> 00:05:05.280 align:middle line:84% But like I feel like a lot of times when I write a book, 00:05:05.280 --> 00:05:11.370 align:middle line:84% I think of it as like who are the characters that 00:05:11.370 --> 00:05:13.835 align:middle line:84% are the main figures I'm going to be in conversation with. 00:05:13.835 --> 00:05:15.960 align:middle line:84% So like the thing I'm writing now, people are like, 00:05:15.960 --> 00:05:16.470 align:middle line:90% oh what's it about? 00:05:16.470 --> 00:05:18.303 align:middle line:84% Like I could say like sodomitical maternity, 00:05:18.303 --> 00:05:19.900 align:middle line:90% or I could say queer family. 00:05:19.900 --> 00:05:21.120 align:middle line:90% I could say a lot of things. 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:23.190 align:middle line:84% But often in my mind, I'm thinking 00:05:23.190 --> 00:05:27.270 align:middle line:84% more like will I put like Winnicott and Sedgwick, 00:05:27.270 --> 00:05:29.835 align:middle line:84% and you know, I don't know, like, say Conrad, 00:05:29.835 --> 00:05:30.960 align:middle line:90% like a bunch of different-- 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:33.147 align:middle line:84% Annie Sprinkle, like Cathy Opie, I 00:05:33.147 --> 00:05:34.980 align:middle line:84% put a bunch of different people in the room. 00:05:34.980 --> 00:05:38.920 align:middle line:84% Many of whom are friends or heroes, and let them kind of 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:40.170 align:middle line:90% bounce around with each other. 00:05:40.170 --> 00:05:43.007 align:middle line:84% And certainly, a book like "Bluets" is like that too. 00:05:43.007 --> 00:05:44.340 align:middle line:90% "The Art Of Cruelty" is as well. 00:05:44.340 --> 00:05:45.690 align:middle line:84% It's a little more-- that book has 00:05:45.690 --> 00:05:47.700 align:middle line:84% a lot-- it's a little more ambivalence because I 00:05:47.700 --> 00:05:51.660 align:middle line:84% write about some things I don't like as well as things I do. 00:05:51.660 --> 00:05:55.120 align:middle line:84% But all of them are my teachers, yeah. 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:55.620 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:57.700 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:05:57.700 --> 00:05:59.290 align:middle line:90% This is a real test. 00:05:59.290 --> 00:06:01.540 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:06:01.540 --> 00:06:02.710 align:middle line:90% You've got a future in this. 00:06:02.710 --> 00:06:03.880 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:06:03.880 --> 00:06:07.030 align:middle line:84% But these are the last two questions. 00:06:07.030 --> 00:06:08.810 align:middle line:84% It seems in quite a few of your books, 00:06:08.810 --> 00:06:14.080 align:middle line:84% you're interested in human spirituality and Eros, 00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:14.710 align:middle line:90% physical, you know, 00:06:14.710 --> 00:06:19.120 align:middle line:84% the physicality of humans and how the two are really 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:21.280 align:middle line:90% intrinsically linked. 00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:23.530 align:middle line:84% I was hoping you could talk about that a little bit, 00:06:23.530 --> 00:06:24.730 align:middle line:90% if you wouldn't mind. 00:06:24.730 --> 00:06:26.425 align:middle line:90% It's very personal, but sorry. 00:06:26.425 --> 00:06:27.430 align:middle line:90% No, that's OK. 00:06:27.430 --> 00:06:30.382 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think something I just read. 00:06:30.382 --> 00:06:32.590 align:middle line:84% I think it was in part of "The Art Of Cruelty," where 00:06:32.590 --> 00:06:35.180 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about the undoneness by each other. 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:39.670 align:middle line:84% And I think that people often crave and are 00:06:39.670 --> 00:06:41.510 align:middle line:90% horrified by undoneness. 00:06:41.510 --> 00:06:43.780 align:middle line:84% But undoneness often can obviously 00:06:43.780 --> 00:06:47.830 align:middle line:84% come from a radical spiritual experience of dissolve 00:06:47.830 --> 00:06:55.360 align:middle line:84% or oneness or terror or feeling found or transcendence. 00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:01.000 align:middle line:84% And then obviously, people like Leo Bersani or Judith Butler 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:02.860 align:middle line:84% or others have written very eloquently 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:09.730 align:middle line:84% about the kind of undoneness that the desire or sex can 00:07:09.730 --> 00:07:12.883 align:middle line:84% deliver, and the ways in which that can make actually sense. 00:07:12.883 --> 00:07:14.800 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is Bersani's kind of a main point 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.610 align:middle line:84% in his writing a theory and the ailment in a different way. 00:07:18.610 --> 00:07:20.110 align:middle line:84% These are different queer theorists, 00:07:20.110 --> 00:07:23.380 align:middle line:84% but writing about what actually makes that kind of focus 00:07:23.380 --> 00:07:27.580 align:middle line:84% on the undoneness of the self-shattering in Bersani's 00:07:27.580 --> 00:07:30.100 align:middle line:84% terms of sexual encounter, a very 00:07:30.100 --> 00:07:33.070 align:middle line:84% difficult flashpoint for identity making 00:07:33.070 --> 00:07:36.140 align:middle line:90% or for your politics. 00:07:36.140 --> 00:07:39.100 align:middle line:84% So I think that in different spheres, 00:07:39.100 --> 00:07:41.290 align:middle line:84% like "Bluets" is much more concerned with divinity 00:07:41.290 --> 00:07:47.380 align:middle line:84% and the kind of spiritual reckoning through that book 00:07:47.380 --> 00:07:51.310 align:middle line:84% because with the last line about being a student of light, 00:07:51.310 --> 00:07:54.430 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's in some ways about, it's kind of an allegory 00:07:54.430 --> 00:07:57.100 align:middle line:84% or at least bleak relation to being-- 00:07:57.100 --> 00:07:58.815 align:middle line:84% I mean, Simone Weil, right, she's 00:07:58.815 --> 00:08:00.940 align:middle line:84% talking all the time about her relationship to God. 00:08:00.940 --> 00:08:02.398 align:middle line:84% And that book kind of moves through 00:08:02.398 --> 00:08:04.280 align:middle line:90% and rehearses those questions. 00:08:04.280 --> 00:08:06.610 align:middle line:84% And what I just read is probably more concerned 00:08:06.610 --> 00:08:11.350 align:middle line:84% with undoneness and the capacity to be undone, or done, or made, 00:08:11.350 --> 00:08:13.810 align:middle line:84% or conflicts with identity, or politics relating 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:15.790 align:middle line:90% to corporality in that way. 00:08:15.790 --> 00:08:18.298 align:middle line:90% If that makes sense. 00:08:18.298 --> 00:08:18.798 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:08:18.798 --> 00:08:21.510 align:middle line:90% 00:08:21.510 --> 00:08:22.680 align:middle line:90% First, awesome. 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:24.990 align:middle line:90% Thank you for reading. 00:08:24.990 --> 00:08:26.010 align:middle line:90% Those are amazing. 00:08:26.010 --> 00:08:26.520 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:30.930 align:middle line:84% But I'll try to pick something up or steal something. 00:08:30.930 --> 00:08:35.460 align:middle line:84% But as somebody who also owns a plot of land in Queermerica, 00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:39.070 align:middle line:84% like what do you think is the next lesson for-- 00:08:39.070 --> 00:08:41.280 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:08:41.280 --> 00:08:45.150 align:middle line:84% What's the next most important part from your perspective 00:08:45.150 --> 00:08:46.380 align:middle line:90% of our struggle or fight? 00:08:46.380 --> 00:08:49.570 align:middle line:90% 00:08:49.570 --> 00:08:51.270 align:middle line:84% Moving out from being third class 00:08:51.270 --> 00:08:53.160 align:middle line:84% to like third and second class citizens. 00:08:53.160 --> 00:08:56.280 align:middle line:84% To remember everyone who's being treated 00:08:56.280 --> 00:08:58.590 align:middle line:84% like a second or third class citizen, you know? 00:08:58.590 --> 00:09:00.632 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think actually to paraphrase something, 00:09:00.632 --> 00:09:05.040 align:middle line:84% Brian once said, you know, it's like with every law that's 00:09:05.040 --> 00:09:09.040 align:middle line:84% passed, ask how it works for the neediest, the most vulnerable 00:09:09.040 --> 00:09:09.540 align:middle line:90% among you. 00:09:09.540 --> 00:09:12.810 align:middle line:84% And if you bring that as a test of its worthiness, 00:09:12.810 --> 00:09:15.480 align:middle line:84% I think it's one viable strategy, you know? 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:21.600 align:middle line:84% I think-- but you know I don't have as little abstract, that's 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:25.503 align:middle line:84% probably as good as I'll probably get. 00:09:25.503 --> 00:09:26.670 align:middle line:90% Thanks, everyone for coming. 00:09:26.670 --> 00:09:27.510 align:middle line:90% Let's applaud Maggie again for being here. 00:09:27.510 --> 00:09:30.500 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:31.000 align:middle line:90%