WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.360 align:middle line:90% 00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:01.860 align:middle line:90% Hi. 00:00:01.860 --> 00:00:04.050 align:middle line:90% Thank you both. 00:00:04.050 --> 00:00:09.150 align:middle line:84% So both of you wrote about or read 00:00:09.150 --> 00:00:14.790 align:middle line:84% about forms of escape, evasion, flight from binary gender, 00:00:14.790 --> 00:00:17.900 align:middle line:84% from cops, from the demands of ballet and foreign 00:00:17.900 --> 00:00:21.150 align:middle line:84% respectability and the expectations 00:00:21.150 --> 00:00:24.120 align:middle line:90% of gay male culture. 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:30.930 align:middle line:84% And yet there is also in this form of writing and reading 00:00:30.930 --> 00:00:34.650 align:middle line:84% and I think in the worlds you were writing and reading 00:00:34.650 --> 00:00:42.660 align:middle line:84% about a demand to essentialize, exaggerate, and perform 00:00:42.660 --> 00:00:47.400 align:middle line:84% your difference or evasion or the author's difference 00:00:47.400 --> 00:00:50.020 align:middle line:90% and evasion. 00:00:50.020 --> 00:00:55.800 align:middle line:84% And I was curious how you either escape or come 00:00:55.800 --> 00:01:01.710 align:middle line:84% to terms with the commodification of your escape. 00:01:01.710 --> 00:01:07.240 align:middle line:90% 00:01:07.240 --> 00:01:07.860 align:middle line:90% Easy question. 00:01:07.860 --> 00:01:10.480 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:12.925 align:middle line:90% Yeah, let me think for a second. 00:01:12.925 --> 00:01:14.710 align:middle line:84% I think-- I think you probably have a lot 00:01:14.710 --> 00:01:15.877 align:middle line:90% of good thoughts about that. 00:01:15.877 --> 00:01:18.920 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:19.420 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:01:19.420 --> 00:01:20.440 align:middle line:90% And I think you're-- 00:01:20.440 --> 00:01:26.180 align:middle line:84% I mean there's this phrase I'm familiar with it. 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:28.870 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to find a place who it comes from originally 00:01:28.870 --> 00:01:33.700 align:middle line:84% and I'll say if it comes to me later someone can speak up. 00:01:33.700 --> 00:01:34.960 align:middle line:90% Look at me, don't look at me. 00:01:34.960 --> 00:01:36.010 align:middle line:90% You all know this-- 00:01:36.010 --> 00:01:38.920 align:middle line:84% it's like especially within I think 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:43.137 align:middle line:84% queer experiences this idea of wanting to get the attention. 00:01:43.137 --> 00:01:45.220 align:middle line:84% But then the attention comes with violence, right? 00:01:45.220 --> 00:01:46.930 align:middle line:90% So it's like I have-- 00:01:46.930 --> 00:01:49.840 align:middle line:84% I've been erased or I've been discarded 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:51.730 align:middle line:84% or whatever the thing is and you want 00:01:51.730 --> 00:01:54.200 align:middle line:84% to be validated by being recognized or whatever 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:54.700 align:middle line:90% the case. 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:56.380 align:middle line:84% But then the second the attention 00:01:56.380 --> 00:01:58.420 align:middle line:84% is given to you it comes with violence, 00:01:58.420 --> 00:01:59.590 align:middle line:90% it's exposure to violence. 00:01:59.590 --> 00:02:02.230 align:middle line:84% And it's like you're saying like a demand 00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:06.530 align:middle line:84% to do the song and dance of it all. 00:02:06.530 --> 00:02:09.820 align:middle line:84% And that attention to me is like you're 00:02:09.820 --> 00:02:12.250 align:middle line:84% saying it's a problem but it's also really interesting 00:02:12.250 --> 00:02:14.260 align:middle line:84% and it's something that I'm, I think 00:02:14.260 --> 00:02:16.270 align:middle line:84% most interested in my own work in trying 00:02:16.270 --> 00:02:18.520 align:middle line:84% to lean into instead of turning away from 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:21.580 align:middle line:84% and play with and play with those expectations 00:02:21.580 --> 00:02:25.120 align:middle line:84% and find that space as a space where 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:30.160 align:middle line:84% I can move into complexity and move into uncomfortable moments 00:02:30.160 --> 00:02:33.220 align:middle line:84% and kind of play a game with the reader. 00:02:33.220 --> 00:02:34.990 align:middle line:84% And I think being aware of that and being 00:02:34.990 --> 00:02:36.760 align:middle line:84% aware of what I think you're talking 00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:38.350 align:middle line:84% about and that kind of bizarre tension 00:02:38.350 --> 00:02:42.250 align:middle line:84% that's put on marginalized writers of all different kinds. 00:02:42.250 --> 00:02:45.850 align:middle line:84% Being aware of that lets me hopefully 00:02:45.850 --> 00:02:48.250 align:middle line:84% be a step ahead of the people who might 00:02:48.250 --> 00:02:50.470 align:middle line:90% be demanding something of me. 00:02:50.470 --> 00:02:53.620 align:middle line:84% But I don't know that there is a way to totally avoid or get 00:02:53.620 --> 00:02:56.860 align:middle line:84% away from that kind of tension or contradiction 00:02:56.860 --> 00:02:58.320 align:middle line:90% that you're talking about. 00:02:58.320 --> 00:02:58.820 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:02:58.820 --> 00:03:03.070 align:middle line:90% 00:03:03.070 --> 00:03:04.375 align:middle line:90% Beautifully said. 00:03:04.375 --> 00:03:05.900 align:middle line:90% I don't I have much to add. 00:03:05.900 --> 00:03:09.760 align:middle line:84% I think it's an interesting question 00:03:09.760 --> 00:03:12.940 align:middle line:84% that I like to hear other people talk about when I-- 00:03:12.940 --> 00:03:15.340 align:middle line:84% for me I think it's not the kind of question 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:18.790 align:middle line:84% that's at the forefront in the writing for me. 00:03:18.790 --> 00:03:23.170 align:middle line:84% So for me I'm really thinking-- if I'm 00:03:23.170 --> 00:03:25.240 align:middle line:84% thinking about audience or reception at all 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.090 align:middle line:84% it's like I'm thinking about queer and trans readers 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:31.720 align:middle line:84% primarily and what is of interest, what is pleasurable. 00:03:31.720 --> 00:03:37.300 align:middle line:84% What might be resonant, what might be a fun escape. 00:03:37.300 --> 00:03:44.680 align:middle line:84% And so sure, I think it can be complicated 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:47.140 align:middle line:84% when people who are not your imagined audience 00:03:47.140 --> 00:03:48.118 align:middle line:90% are reading your work. 00:03:48.118 --> 00:03:49.660 align:middle line:84% And it can be complicated when people 00:03:49.660 --> 00:03:52.160 align:middle line:84% who are your imagined audience are reading your work in ways 00:03:52.160 --> 00:03:53.290 align:middle line:90% that you might not imagine. 00:03:53.290 --> 00:03:55.820 align:middle line:84% But that's kind of a cool thing about writing something 00:03:55.820 --> 00:03:57.320 align:middle line:84% and then putting it out in the world 00:03:57.320 --> 00:03:58.653 align:middle line:90% and then it's not yours anymore. 00:03:58.653 --> 00:04:00.702 align:middle line:84% And then other people say things about it 00:04:00.702 --> 00:04:02.410 align:middle line:84% and then you think oh my God, I did that. 00:04:02.410 --> 00:04:03.220 align:middle line:90% What? 00:04:03.220 --> 00:04:04.090 align:middle line:90% OK, cool. 00:04:04.090 --> 00:04:15.110 align:middle line:90% 00:04:15.110 --> 00:04:19.070 align:middle line:84% So as a non-binary and/or genderqueer authors 00:04:19.070 --> 00:04:22.520 align:middle line:84% writing about non-binary and/or gender queer experiences, 00:04:22.520 --> 00:04:27.140 align:middle line:84% is there a way that you find you're 00:04:27.140 --> 00:04:30.260 align:middle line:84% commodifying your own experience in your writing. 00:04:30.260 --> 00:04:31.760 align:middle line:84% Because that's something that I find 00:04:31.760 --> 00:04:33.980 align:middle line:84% has happened where it's like I can 00:04:33.980 --> 00:04:38.510 align:middle line:84% make my experience dramatic to satisfy a cisgender audience. 00:04:38.510 --> 00:04:41.570 align:middle line:84% But that's not necessarily what I actually want to write. 00:04:41.570 --> 00:04:47.630 align:middle line:84% So I guess how do you deal with the impulse 00:04:47.630 --> 00:04:53.450 align:middle line:84% to sort of have this experience seen 00:04:53.450 --> 00:04:56.450 align:middle line:84% but not feel like you're commodifying yourself. 00:04:56.450 --> 00:04:59.780 align:middle line:90% 00:04:59.780 --> 00:05:05.030 align:middle line:84% Well, again I guess I would say like I'm not concerned 00:05:05.030 --> 00:05:07.310 align:middle line:90% about straight or cis readers. 00:05:07.310 --> 00:05:09.260 align:middle line:90% I'm delighted for people to-- 00:05:09.260 --> 00:05:11.990 align:middle line:84% I think the question for me oftentimes 00:05:11.990 --> 00:05:14.660 align:middle line:84% when I was work-shopping sections of the novel 00:05:14.660 --> 00:05:17.020 align:middle line:90% in the MFA program I was in. 00:05:17.020 --> 00:05:18.520 align:middle line:84% And actually in the master's program 00:05:18.520 --> 00:05:21.470 align:middle line:90% where I started it sort of. 00:05:21.470 --> 00:05:24.050 align:middle line:84% People would want explanations for things 00:05:24.050 --> 00:05:26.490 align:middle line:84% and I would be sort of like no, I can't do that. 00:05:26.490 --> 00:05:28.740 align:middle line:90% I don't need to explain that. 00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:29.750 align:middle line:90% And that was fine. 00:05:29.750 --> 00:05:32.900 align:middle line:84% You know I had a lot of push-back on certain kinds 00:05:32.900 --> 00:05:34.826 align:middle line:90% of things like there's a-- 00:05:34.826 --> 00:05:37.820 align:middle line:84% I've made the choice to use he/him pronouns 00:05:37.820 --> 00:05:41.030 align:middle line:84% throughout the book for Paul and there was a lot of-- 00:05:41.030 --> 00:05:44.000 align:middle line:84% I got a lot of push-back for a long time 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.170 align:middle line:84% exclusively from straight and cis people. 00:05:46.170 --> 00:05:50.030 align:middle line:84% And I was like I can't tell you why I can't do that thing. 00:05:50.030 --> 00:05:52.940 align:middle line:84% I'm going to actually go home and cry a little bit and then 00:05:52.940 --> 00:05:56.000 align:middle line:90% also not do it. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:58.640 align:middle line:84% The crying, I actually did cry one time out of frustration. 00:05:58.640 --> 00:06:00.680 align:middle line:84% I'm not really a crier but I cried out of frustration. 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:02.138 align:middle line:84% I was just like, why are you asking 00:06:02.138 --> 00:06:04.340 align:middle line:90% this stupid fucking question. 00:06:04.340 --> 00:06:06.760 align:middle line:84% And it's not a stupid question but it was to me. 00:06:06.760 --> 00:06:08.510 align:middle line:84% I was just like-- what was frustrating was 00:06:08.510 --> 00:06:09.710 align:middle line:90% I couldn't answer it. 00:06:09.710 --> 00:06:11.240 align:middle line:84% And then later is able to answer it 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:14.150 align:middle line:84% after other people explained it to me and I was like thank you. 00:06:14.150 --> 00:06:14.840 align:middle line:90% Cool. 00:06:14.840 --> 00:06:17.060 align:middle line:84% I'm now sounding like a dopey fiction 00:06:17.060 --> 00:06:20.540 align:middle line:90% writer which is not my plan. 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:23.495 align:middle line:84% But I think the last thing I'll say about this was-- 00:06:23.495 --> 00:06:27.400 align:middle line:90% 00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:28.090 align:middle line:90% yeah. 00:06:28.090 --> 00:06:30.310 align:middle line:90% I think it's-- 00:06:30.310 --> 00:06:33.580 align:middle line:84% I'm not particularly worried about commodifying 00:06:33.580 --> 00:06:34.690 align:middle line:90% my experience. 00:06:34.690 --> 00:06:41.000 align:middle line:84% I'm just trying to get the next sentence out honestly. 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:41.500 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:43.807 align:middle line:90% And I think this is-- 00:06:43.807 --> 00:06:46.390 align:middle line:84% you might echo with some of this if this might be true for you 00:06:46.390 --> 00:06:48.610 align:middle line:90% too. 00:06:48.610 --> 00:06:52.420 align:middle line:84% The idea of commodifying like a non-binary trans 00:06:52.420 --> 00:06:56.740 align:middle line:84% experience was like seems very, very new to me. 00:06:56.740 --> 00:06:59.148 align:middle line:84% Like when I was transitioning like the idea 00:06:59.148 --> 00:07:00.940 align:middle line:84% that I could comodify the experience that I 00:07:00.940 --> 00:07:02.920 align:middle line:90% was having was very-- 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:05.510 align:middle line:84% like that wasn't really an option. 00:07:05.510 --> 00:07:07.180 align:middle line:84% So I think that some of those questions 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:10.450 align:middle line:84% are questions that might be coming 00:07:10.450 --> 00:07:12.670 align:middle line:90% in this kind of cultural moment. 00:07:12.670 --> 00:07:14.890 align:middle line:84% We have these kind of regularly scheduled moments 00:07:14.890 --> 00:07:17.552 align:middle line:84% where the world seems to notice trans people existing 00:07:17.552 --> 00:07:19.510 align:middle line:84% and then gets very excited and then that moment 00:07:19.510 --> 00:07:20.715 align:middle line:90% passes for quite a while. 00:07:20.715 --> 00:07:22.840 align:middle line:84% And then those kind of heightened attention moments 00:07:22.840 --> 00:07:24.670 align:middle line:84% like in those look at me don't look at me 00:07:24.670 --> 00:07:28.570 align:middle line:84% moments I think that there is maybe some more tension there. 00:07:28.570 --> 00:07:30.690 align:middle line:84% But I mean like you're saying when I'm-- 00:07:30.690 --> 00:07:34.960 align:middle line:84% if I'm reading someone's narrative or story 00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:36.940 align:middle line:84% or looking at someone's artwork or whatever 00:07:36.940 --> 00:07:40.180 align:middle line:84% the case is who I don't share that person's experience 00:07:40.180 --> 00:07:42.290 align:middle line:84% and that person is explaining to me, 00:07:42.290 --> 00:07:43.790 align:middle line:84% I really don't get much out of that. 00:07:43.790 --> 00:07:45.748 align:middle line:84% And if the person is trying to render something 00:07:45.748 --> 00:07:50.200 align:middle line:84% that's true to herself or that gets a little bit closer to it 00:07:50.200 --> 00:07:53.770 align:middle line:84% beyond explanation then I gain much, much more from the art. 00:07:53.770 --> 00:07:56.845 align:middle line:84% So I try to give the same thing myself. 00:07:56.845 --> 00:08:12.590 align:middle line:90% 00:08:12.590 --> 00:08:19.250 align:middle line:84% So how do you balance the sort of anti-establishment mindset, 00:08:19.250 --> 00:08:23.690 align:middle line:84% the ideology, with the fact that you've 00:08:23.690 --> 00:08:29.780 align:middle line:84% come here and given this meeting at a large university 00:08:29.780 --> 00:08:35.480 align:middle line:84% establishment in a generally red state and so on and so forth? 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:41.419 align:middle line:84% It's just kind of seems interesting to have done 00:08:41.419 --> 00:08:45.030 align:middle line:90% this in that way, you know. 00:08:45.030 --> 00:08:45.530 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:08:45.530 --> 00:08:49.970 align:middle line:84% Well, I think that sharing work that 00:08:49.970 --> 00:08:54.830 align:middle line:84% might push against some sort of normative or mainstream culture 00:08:54.830 --> 00:08:58.190 align:middle line:84% in like a red state seems even more valuable to me 00:08:58.190 --> 00:09:02.600 align:middle line:84% and more radical than sharing that work in maybe 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.770 align:middle line:84% a more liberal environment or something like that. 00:09:06.770 --> 00:09:10.850 align:middle line:84% Although I would imagine that within Tucson and then 00:09:10.850 --> 00:09:12.830 align:middle line:84% specifically within the Poetry Center that 00:09:12.830 --> 00:09:15.793 align:middle line:84% it might be a stretch to think of this as a totally 00:09:15.793 --> 00:09:16.835 align:middle line:90% conservative environment. 00:09:16.835 --> 00:09:19.580 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:09:19.580 --> 00:09:22.430 align:middle line:84% But that said, yeah, I mean it's-- 00:09:22.430 --> 00:09:26.180 align:middle line:84% I myself do struggle often with wanting 00:09:26.180 --> 00:09:30.020 align:middle line:84% to have more radical intentions behind my life 00:09:30.020 --> 00:09:32.390 align:middle line:84% and the kind of demands of institutions 00:09:32.390 --> 00:09:36.320 align:middle line:84% and how institutions can reinforce these other things 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:38.300 align:middle line:84% that we're talking about along commodification 00:09:38.300 --> 00:09:40.820 align:middle line:90% and all that kind of stuff. 00:09:40.820 --> 00:09:44.198 align:middle line:90% I don't think that-- 00:09:44.198 --> 00:09:46.490 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to think of what else I could say that would 00:09:46.490 --> 00:09:50.370 align:middle line:90% be productive about that. 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:50.870 align:middle line:90% Wait. 00:09:50.870 --> 00:09:52.430 align:middle line:84% Let me pause to finish this thought. 00:09:52.430 --> 00:09:53.630 align:middle line:90% And do you want to add anything? 00:09:53.630 --> 00:09:54.130 align:middle line:90% Sure. 00:09:54.130 --> 00:10:00.140 align:middle line:84% I mean I guess I am not unfamiliar with institutions. 00:10:00.140 --> 00:10:02.540 align:middle line:84% And you know, I've done things like gone 00:10:02.540 --> 00:10:05.310 align:middle line:84% and gotten to different graduate degrees in creative writing. 00:10:05.310 --> 00:10:06.890 align:middle line:90% What's that about. 00:10:06.890 --> 00:10:09.320 align:middle line:90% Highly institutional behavior. 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:11.900 align:middle line:84% I teach at an institution, I'm a subject 00:10:11.900 --> 00:10:14.060 align:middle line:84% of hopefully late Western capitalism. 00:10:14.060 --> 00:10:16.970 align:middle line:84% I mean, I don't-- like I'm compromised because we all are. 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:20.960 align:middle line:84% None of us are bigger than capitalism or socialization 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:25.070 align:middle line:90% or heteronormativity or it's-- 00:10:25.070 --> 00:10:26.820 align:middle line:90% I'm really happy to be here. 00:10:26.820 --> 00:10:29.480 align:middle line:84% I was really honored and excited to be invited. 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:33.830 align:middle line:84% And I like to come to places where 00:10:33.830 --> 00:10:36.740 align:middle line:84% there are lots of readers and writers 00:10:36.740 --> 00:10:41.850 align:middle line:84% wanting to talk about reading and writing. 00:10:41.850 --> 00:10:42.350 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:10:42.350 --> 00:10:44.810 align:middle line:84% And I guess the other thing I wanted to say. 00:10:44.810 --> 00:10:48.020 align:middle line:84% I think that all our making and our sharing 00:10:48.020 --> 00:10:51.140 align:middle line:84% ends up being in some ways a compromise, right? 00:10:51.140 --> 00:10:54.500 align:middle line:84% There are ways that we can create community 00:10:54.500 --> 00:10:56.750 align:middle line:84% and collectives and these types of things 00:10:56.750 --> 00:11:00.957 align:middle line:84% that are 100% outside of institutional spaces. 00:11:00.957 --> 00:11:02.540 align:middle line:84% But if we're going to be participating 00:11:02.540 --> 00:11:05.660 align:middle line:84% in any sort of mass culture we are compromising 00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:10.850 align:middle line:84% and we do have to let go of some of those things. 00:11:10.850 --> 00:11:14.190 align:middle line:84% And that's not or for myself that's how I feel. 00:11:14.190 --> 00:11:16.970 align:middle line:84% And that's not something that is necessarily pretty or nice 00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:18.620 align:middle line:90% but I do think it's a reality. 00:11:18.620 --> 00:11:21.410 align:middle line:84% And as we kind of negotiate our own survival 00:11:21.410 --> 00:11:24.200 align:middle line:84% and as we negotiate these cultural moments 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:26.180 align:middle line:84% and historical moments that we're in, 00:11:26.180 --> 00:11:28.100 align:middle line:84% I think being aware of the compromise 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:31.820 align:middle line:84% and being aware of what we're giving up is what I can do. 00:11:31.820 --> 00:11:39.750 align:middle line:90% 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:43.470 align:middle line:84% I for one just want to thank both of you for your readings 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:45.480 align:middle line:90% and for standing up there. 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.902 align:middle line:84% And I want to apologize that people seem like we're placing 00:11:48.902 --> 00:11:50.110 align:middle line:90% the whole world's burden on-- 00:11:50.110 --> 00:11:52.140 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:11:52.140 --> 00:11:55.500 align:middle line:84% --explain everything that's unlike ourselves. 00:11:55.500 --> 00:11:58.560 align:middle line:84% And I just think it's very refreshing 00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:01.076 align:middle line:84% and I very much appreciate which performances 00:12:01.076 --> 00:12:03.675 align:middle line:90% take me [INAUDIBLE] 00:12:03.675 --> 00:12:13.610 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:12:13.610 --> 00:12:16.317 align:middle line:84% I actually also have a question about the formal qualities 00:12:16.317 --> 00:12:17.900 align:middle line:84% of your writing just because I noticed 00:12:17.900 --> 00:12:22.220 align:middle line:84% that you were both working sort of hybridly- T 00:12:22.220 --> 00:12:25.940 align:middle line:84% in terms of the stream of consciousness narrative 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:28.850 align:middle line:84% that would shift, and Andrea in terms 00:12:28.850 --> 00:12:36.620 align:middle line:84% of switching between the story of Paul and the fairy tales. 00:12:36.620 --> 00:12:40.680 align:middle line:84% And so I was sort of curious how you approach, 00:12:40.680 --> 00:12:42.110 align:middle line:84% including hybridity in your work. 00:12:42.110 --> 00:12:47.890 align:middle line:90% 00:12:47.890 --> 00:12:48.520 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:12:48.520 --> 00:12:53.380 align:middle line:84% So I approach my work through process primarily. 00:12:53.380 --> 00:12:56.480 align:middle line:84% So I think mostly about what my writing process is. 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.110 align:middle line:84% And I think the process has embedded in life 00:12:59.110 --> 00:13:01.490 align:middle line:84% and embedded in things outside of the writing as well. 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:07.960 align:middle line:84% So I'm always writing and taking notes and revising old things 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:09.460 align:middle line:84% and playing with all the old things 00:13:09.460 --> 00:13:10.720 align:middle line:90% and pulling from old things. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.740 align:middle line:84% And I have a kind of giant mess of things that I bring together 00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:17.840 align:middle line:84% and I try to make work in different ways and all that. 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:20.050 align:middle line:84% So in the times the thing about in those through 00:13:20.050 --> 00:13:22.720 align:middle line:90% there's the two main forms. 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.080 align:middle line:84% There's the kind of prose narrative thing 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.150 align:middle line:84% and the kind of essay in verse type thing. 00:13:28.150 --> 00:13:30.500 align:middle line:84% And there's other forms that come in as well. 00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:32.770 align:middle line:84% But each of those are only a kind 00:13:32.770 --> 00:13:35.590 align:middle line:84% of small part of much larger writing projects 00:13:35.590 --> 00:13:37.750 align:middle line:84% that I then kind of piece together and brought 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:39.280 align:middle line:90% into each other. 00:13:39.280 --> 00:13:40.900 align:middle line:90% And I think of-- 00:13:40.900 --> 00:13:44.120 align:middle line:84% hybrid as- I sometimes push against a little bit; 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:45.940 align:middle line:84% everything I think is a hybrid, right? 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:49.270 align:middle line:84% And I think that a hy-- things that we name as hybrid 00:13:49.270 --> 00:13:51.460 align:middle line:84% are also cohesive and whole in the same way 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:54.850 align:middle line:84% that something that might not be labeled as hybridized is. 00:13:54.850 --> 00:13:58.005 align:middle line:84% But what's kind of pleasurable for me 00:13:58.005 --> 00:13:59.380 align:middle line:84% and what I try to do with my work 00:13:59.380 --> 00:14:01.690 align:middle line:84% is to take things from different moments 00:14:01.690 --> 00:14:05.320 align:middle line:84% and to let things kind of rest over time and return to them 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.040 align:middle line:84% and do a layering and that kind of process 00:14:09.040 --> 00:14:13.090 align:middle line:84% until something clicks together and I feel satisfied 00:14:13.090 --> 00:14:15.760 align:middle line:84% that it's speaking to itself and giving me 00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:17.012 align:middle line:90% that sense of cohesion. 00:14:17.012 --> 00:14:18.970 align:middle line:84% So even though the process itself might include 00:14:18.970 --> 00:14:21.610 align:middle line:84% this hybridization, it's when it comes together 00:14:21.610 --> 00:14:24.730 align:middle line:84% and when I feel like there's one cohesive project there that I 00:14:24.730 --> 00:14:25.630 align:middle line:90% feel like it's done. 00:14:25.630 --> 00:14:29.650 align:middle line:90% 00:14:29.650 --> 00:14:31.540 align:middle line:84% I think there's actually something 00:14:31.540 --> 00:14:34.390 align:middle line:90% similar in the process for me. 00:14:34.390 --> 00:14:38.080 align:middle line:84% The novel Paul Takes the Form of a Mortal Girl. 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.960 align:middle line:84% I worked on it, it began life as a short story 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:43.570 align:middle line:84% and then my teacher Samuel Delaney said 00:14:43.570 --> 00:14:45.820 align:middle line:84% I think you're not done with this and then I like just 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:47.230 align:middle line:90% do whatever he says. 00:14:47.230 --> 00:14:50.778 align:middle line:84% So I wrote a novel and that took many years. 00:14:50.778 --> 00:14:52.570 align:middle line:84% And in the course of that one of the things 00:14:52.570 --> 00:14:55.940 align:middle line:84% I kept saying to people like I don't know my parents, 00:14:55.940 --> 00:14:58.420 align:middle line:84% for instance, were like you're still working on that? 00:14:58.420 --> 00:14:59.710 align:middle line:90% Yes I am. 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:02.050 align:middle line:90% Is that novels can be baggy. 00:15:02.050 --> 00:15:03.610 align:middle line:84% You can put a lot of stuff in them. 00:15:03.610 --> 00:15:06.460 align:middle line:84% I just recently was introduced to this terrific essay 00:15:06.460 --> 00:15:08.890 align:middle line:84% by Ursula K. Le Guin called The Carrier Bag 00:15:08.890 --> 00:15:13.220 align:middle line:84% Theory of Fiction which probably many of you have read. 00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:16.025 align:middle line:84% So there's a way in which I wanted to put-- 00:15:16.025 --> 00:15:17.650 align:middle line:84% I think this is a first novel thing too 00:15:17.650 --> 00:15:19.275 align:middle line:84% like I want to put everything in there. 00:15:19.275 --> 00:15:25.570 align:middle line:84% It's also my sort of like trans autobiography, thinly veiled. 00:15:25.570 --> 00:15:28.398 align:middle line:84% But one of the things that I really 00:15:28.398 --> 00:15:30.190 align:middle line:84% have been thinking a lot about and noticing 00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:33.790 align:middle line:84% in my own experience and in the scenes I've been in 00:15:33.790 --> 00:15:35.410 align:middle line:84% and the communities and worlds I've 00:15:35.410 --> 00:15:39.290 align:middle line:84% been kind of traveling through was the ways in which, 00:15:39.290 --> 00:15:43.060 align:middle line:84% as queer and trans people we're always sort of-- 00:15:43.060 --> 00:15:45.430 align:middle line:84% we're being asked to come up with these narratives 00:15:45.430 --> 00:15:49.930 align:middle line:84% about our lives sometimes for really coercive reasons, 00:15:49.930 --> 00:15:54.220 align:middle line:84% sometimes as a way to share and build community with others. 00:15:54.220 --> 00:15:56.290 align:middle line:84% But narrative I think is really-- 00:15:56.290 --> 00:16:00.520 align:middle line:84% it's something that we also have to make for ourselves 00:16:00.520 --> 00:16:06.170 align:middle line:84% and we don't see models of ways to be a person around us. 00:16:06.170 --> 00:16:10.540 align:middle line:84% And so for me like how I have learned to be a person 00:16:10.540 --> 00:16:12.150 align:middle line:90% was through reading books. 00:16:12.150 --> 00:16:15.280 align:middle line:84% And so for me, it was really important to try 00:16:15.280 --> 00:16:20.920 align:middle line:84% to also cram all that queer literary lineage into the book 00:16:20.920 --> 00:16:22.190 align:middle line:90% as much as possible. 00:16:22.190 --> 00:16:26.307 align:middle line:84% And I did a lot of playing around with ordering 00:16:26.307 --> 00:16:28.390 align:middle line:84% and it was I think through taking poetry workshops 00:16:28.390 --> 00:16:30.520 align:middle line:84% towards the end of the process of completing 00:16:30.520 --> 00:16:32.050 align:middle line:84% the draft of the book that helped 00:16:32.050 --> 00:16:35.140 align:middle line:84% me think a lot about endings and ordering. 00:16:35.140 --> 00:16:37.600 align:middle line:84% So some of the sections were in very different places. 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.810 align:middle line:84% I probably cut like 30,000 words. 00:16:40.810 --> 00:16:45.430 align:middle line:84% There was a lot of different things that- many outtakes. 00:16:45.430 --> 00:16:49.060 align:middle line:84% So I think some of it is just kind of jumbling it in there 00:16:49.060 --> 00:16:51.550 align:middle line:84% and then ordering it in a more intentional way. 00:16:51.550 --> 00:16:53.080 align:middle line:84% But I think part of the jumbling get 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:59.455 align:middle line:84% in is part of being a queer and trans-ish, trans, non-binary. 00:16:59.455 --> 00:17:01.277 align:middle line:84% I mean like i also hate all these words. 00:17:01.277 --> 00:17:02.860 align:middle line:84% None of them even work for me anymore. 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:06.339 align:middle line:84% So I had to write a book because I'm like I can't really-- 00:17:06.339 --> 00:17:07.660 align:middle line:90% I don't have a word that works. 00:17:07.660 --> 00:17:11.810 align:middle line:84% But I wrote a book and maybe that will help. 00:17:11.810 --> 00:17:13.569 align:middle line:90% Thank you so much. 00:17:13.569 --> 00:17:15.419 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:17:15.419 --> 00:17:19.360 align:middle line:90%