WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.930 align:middle line:84% So that's a great way to perhaps open it up 00:00:03.930 --> 00:00:07.090 align:middle line:84% to others, this question of resistance in [INAUDIBLE]. 00:00:07.090 --> 00:00:08.215 align:middle line:90% Ooh. 00:00:08.215 --> 00:00:10.335 align:middle line:84% I want to say, just go back to the Dolphy thing, 00:00:10.335 --> 00:00:11.710 align:middle line:84% and mention one thing about that, 00:00:11.710 --> 00:00:14.160 align:middle line:84% and then ask a question that may not have anything 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:16.020 align:middle line:90% to do with it or it might. 00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:17.740 align:middle line:84% So that's this great one, more recent. 00:00:17.740 --> 00:00:21.060 align:middle line:84% So when music is over, it's gone in the air, 00:00:21.060 --> 00:00:23.690 align:middle line:90% you can never capture it again. 00:00:23.690 --> 00:00:24.690 align:middle line:90% And so it's very moving. 00:00:24.690 --> 00:00:26.700 align:middle line:84% And then you think, oh, shit, they captured it. 00:00:26.700 --> 00:00:27.300 align:middle line:90% It's on tape. 00:00:27.300 --> 00:00:29.755 align:middle line:84% And then you think, oh, it's on a thing called last date. 00:00:29.755 --> 00:00:31.380 align:middle line:84% And that's the last thing that you ever 00:00:31.380 --> 00:00:32.650 align:middle line:90% hear from before he dies. 00:00:32.650 --> 00:00:32.850 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:00:32.850 --> 00:00:34.320 align:middle line:84% So that feels really important, that. 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:34.820 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:00:34.820 --> 00:00:38.230 align:middle line:84% So let's put that up on the wall and bring it in or not. 00:00:38.230 --> 00:00:42.000 align:middle line:84% But I wanted to ask you, so what's 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:44.317 align:middle line:84% the value of improvisatory work for you? 00:00:44.317 --> 00:00:46.650 align:middle line:84% And I don't mean it at all as a hostile question, but as 00:00:46.650 --> 00:00:47.817 align:middle line:90% one that's very sympathetic. 00:00:47.817 --> 00:00:49.950 align:middle line:90% So what is that about? 00:00:49.950 --> 00:00:53.640 align:middle line:84% And why is improvisation important to you as a musician 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:55.470 align:middle line:90% or as a writer? 00:00:55.470 --> 00:00:58.680 align:middle line:90% Because it's the unknown. 00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:05.230 align:middle line:84% You want to find something that you couldn't decide to do. 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:08.730 align:middle line:84% But when you find it, you know that you wanted to find it. 00:01:08.730 --> 00:01:09.810 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:01:09.810 --> 00:01:10.410 align:middle line:90% It's hard. 00:01:10.410 --> 00:01:12.960 align:middle line:84% It's circular in a way, so hard to describe. 00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:17.250 align:middle line:84% But I get in a mood where I think 00:01:17.250 --> 00:01:22.470 align:middle line:84% all art must have some of that in it if it's really great art. 00:01:22.470 --> 00:01:24.870 align:middle line:90% That even the painter-- 00:01:24.870 --> 00:01:29.750 align:middle line:84% when I was friendly with Guston, Phil Guston, 00:01:29.750 --> 00:01:33.900 align:middle line:84% I got so-- we used to talk about what image came 00:01:33.900 --> 00:01:36.040 align:middle line:90% and after what image. 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:39.150 align:middle line:84% He had these huge canvases, finally, 00:01:39.150 --> 00:01:43.020 align:middle line:84% that had many, many heads, and shoes, and all, kinds of, 00:01:43.020 --> 00:01:47.355 align:middle line:84% stuff that was around the studio, spikes, and brushes, 00:01:47.355 --> 00:01:48.240 align:middle line:90% and all. 00:01:48.240 --> 00:01:50.670 align:middle line:84% And I finally got so I could pretty much 00:01:50.670 --> 00:01:53.790 align:middle line:84% tell that he did this and then he did that. 00:01:53.790 --> 00:01:55.560 align:middle line:84% I don't mean just, I could see this 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:56.790 align:middle line:90% was painted on top of that. 00:01:56.790 --> 00:01:59.400 align:middle line:90% But that often was true. 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:01.200 align:middle line:90% And he would paint out a lot. 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.510 align:middle line:84% He would paint out whole canvases. 00:02:03.510 --> 00:02:05.850 align:middle line:84% We would go for 10 hours and I think 00:02:05.850 --> 00:02:09.000 align:middle line:84% fill it up, take a few hours sleep, come back 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.838 align:middle line:84% and, no, he'd say it didn't hold up. 00:02:11.838 --> 00:02:13.380 align:middle line:84% The paint didn't hold on the surface. 00:02:13.380 --> 00:02:15.322 align:middle line:90% I had to paint it all out. 00:02:15.322 --> 00:02:16.530 align:middle line:90% That was part of the process. 00:02:16.530 --> 00:02:19.140 align:middle line:84% But I remember at one point, he used 00:02:19.140 --> 00:02:21.840 align:middle line:84% to call me up about every six months and say-- 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:23.910 align:middle line:84% because I lived about an hour and a 1/2 drive 00:02:23.910 --> 00:02:26.070 align:middle line:84% from where he was in Woodstock, New York. 00:02:26.070 --> 00:02:28.320 align:middle line:84% And he said, I got a bunch of new pictures; come over. 00:02:28.320 --> 00:02:29.910 align:middle line:90% And I would come over. 00:02:29.910 --> 00:02:31.230 align:middle line:90% And we would have dinner. 00:02:31.230 --> 00:02:33.360 align:middle line:90% And he would take a long time. 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:35.145 align:middle line:84% He would resist going out to the studio. 00:02:35.145 --> 00:02:36.270 align:middle line:90% It was a separate building. 00:02:36.270 --> 00:02:37.500 align:middle line:90% And he would talk about it. 00:02:37.500 --> 00:02:40.710 align:middle line:84% He'd say, I did this thing and I'm-- as you'll see later 00:02:40.710 --> 00:02:41.305 align:middle line:90% in the studio. 00:02:41.305 --> 00:02:42.930 align:middle line:84% And I'm going, it's like 10:00 o'clock. 00:02:42.930 --> 00:02:43.430 align:middle line:90% That's-- 00:02:43.430 --> 00:02:45.000 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.740 align:middle line:84% But after a while, I knew the process. 00:02:46.740 --> 00:02:49.530 align:middle line:84% And probably about 10:30-11:00, he'd say, all right, 00:02:49.530 --> 00:02:50.440 align:middle line:90% let's go out. 00:02:50.440 --> 00:02:52.050 align:middle line:90% Take another drink and go out. 00:02:52.050 --> 00:02:54.840 align:middle line:84% And we both smoked thingies in those days. 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:56.910 align:middle line:84% And we'd stay up for most of the night looking 00:02:56.910 --> 00:02:59.130 align:middle line:84% at these pictures, a lot of which were wet. 00:02:59.130 --> 00:03:02.580 align:middle line:84% There were 30 or 40 huge, wet canvases. 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:04.740 align:middle line:84% And I remember one time, I told him, I said, 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:06.570 align:middle line:90% that, put that last. 00:03:06.570 --> 00:03:09.330 align:middle line:84% And he said, how the fuck did you know-- 00:03:09.330 --> 00:03:12.840 align:middle line:84% And we really got into how you really-- when you get familiar 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.840 align:middle line:84% with the vocabulary of some artist, you really can tell. 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:20.070 align:middle line:84% And we'd start talking about painting as a time art. 00:03:20.070 --> 00:03:23.280 align:middle line:84% And also, we'd be talking about art in such a way 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.180 align:middle line:84% that it didn't matter if it was words, or paint, or notes. 00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:30.030 align:middle line:84% It was that thing behind everything 00:03:30.030 --> 00:03:33.390 align:middle line:84% that whatever the fuck it is, you're trying to get to it. 00:03:33.390 --> 00:03:35.940 align:middle line:90% 00:03:35.940 --> 00:03:39.630 align:middle line:84% And you could say, you did it there. 00:03:39.630 --> 00:03:40.500 align:middle line:90% I think you did it. 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:41.550 align:middle line:90% Or I think you got close. 00:03:41.550 --> 00:03:41.970 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:03:41.970 --> 00:03:42.470 align:middle line:90% Did I? 00:03:42.470 --> 00:03:43.536 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:03:43.536 --> 00:03:45.650 align:middle line:84% It was all like, did you make it? 00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:49.580 align:middle line:84% That was a New York School thing. 00:03:49.580 --> 00:03:51.090 align:middle line:84% So I don't know if that answered it. 00:03:51.090 --> 00:03:51.590 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:03:51.590 --> 00:03:53.937 align:middle line:90% But that's why I try. 00:03:53.937 --> 00:03:54.520 align:middle line:90% John, here's-- 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:55.366 align:middle line:90% [SNEEZING] 00:03:55.366 --> 00:03:56.212 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:03:56.212 --> 00:03:57.842 align:middle line:84% Just to follow-up on that a little bit 00:03:57.842 --> 00:03:59.550 align:middle line:84% with what you were talking about earlier. 00:03:59.550 --> 00:04:04.680 align:middle line:84% When you are doing improvisation as a musician, 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:06.120 align:middle line:90% it comes out in the song. 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:07.140 align:middle line:90% And the song continues. 00:04:07.140 --> 00:04:10.930 align:middle line:84% And unless it's recorded, you don't have that for future. 00:04:10.930 --> 00:04:13.890 align:middle line:84% But when it comes to words, one has the opportunity 00:04:13.890 --> 00:04:16.920 align:middle line:84% to go back to whatever you've improvised and revise that. 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.190 align:middle line:84% So do you find that you paint over your canvases, 00:04:20.190 --> 00:04:22.560 align:middle line:84% so to speak, to come up with something new 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:24.780 align:middle line:84% or maybe paint out certain words? 00:04:24.780 --> 00:04:26.550 align:middle line:84% Do you go through a process of revision? 00:04:26.550 --> 00:04:29.640 align:middle line:84% Or is it simply improvisation and that's what stays? 00:04:29.640 --> 00:04:31.050 align:middle line:90% I revise very little. 00:04:31.050 --> 00:04:32.610 align:middle line:84% I usually go on and write something-- 00:04:32.610 --> 00:04:36.030 align:middle line:90% I don't know, write more. 00:04:36.030 --> 00:04:39.910 align:middle line:84% And if it doesn't work, I know right away. 00:04:39.910 --> 00:04:41.690 align:middle line:90% I discard it. 00:04:41.690 --> 00:04:43.133 align:middle line:90% I know a line of Ashbery. 00:04:43.133 --> 00:04:44.550 align:middle line:84% He said-- it always cracked me up. 00:04:44.550 --> 00:04:48.210 align:middle line:84% He goes, it's funny, but it's also true. 00:04:48.210 --> 00:04:50.130 align:middle line:84% A friend of mine, Jeffrey Young, who 00:04:50.130 --> 00:04:54.180 align:middle line:84% published a lot of books, and we were at a party at John's, I 00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:56.490 align:middle line:90% think, house in New York. 00:04:56.490 --> 00:04:58.905 align:middle line:84% And he used to have a Christmas party. 00:04:58.905 --> 00:05:07.060 align:middle line:84% And we were full of the idea of publishing 00:05:07.060 --> 00:05:11.250 align:middle line:84% his uncollected works and things that have been in magazines. 00:05:11.250 --> 00:05:14.710 align:middle line:84% And a friend of mine had collected a list 00:05:14.710 --> 00:05:16.470 align:middle line:90% and presented it to him. 00:05:16.470 --> 00:05:20.180 align:middle line:90% And he said, no. 00:05:20.180 --> 00:05:21.300 align:middle line:90% And we went, why? 00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:23.963 align:middle line:84% And then he said, there are reasons 00:05:23.963 --> 00:05:25.130 align:middle line:90% why those weren't published. 00:05:25.130 --> 00:05:26.992 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:05:26.992 --> 00:05:28.450 align:middle line:84% But then later, actually, the thing 00:05:28.450 --> 00:05:29.825 align:middle line:84% at the line I was really thinking 00:05:29.825 --> 00:05:32.920 align:middle line:90% was, he was asked if he revised. 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:35.530 align:middle line:84% And he said, in the early days, he did. 00:05:35.530 --> 00:05:37.918 align:middle line:84% But he said, now I've learned not to write the poems that 00:05:37.918 --> 00:05:38.710 align:middle line:90% need to be revised. 00:05:38.710 --> 00:05:39.664 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:05:39.664 --> 00:05:42.526 align:middle line:90% That's the-- [INAUDIBLE]. 00:05:42.526 --> 00:05:45.330 align:middle line:90% But in a way, you do. 00:05:45.330 --> 00:05:47.670 align:middle line:84% You learn not to waste your time. 00:05:47.670 --> 00:05:49.170 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:05:49.170 --> 00:05:52.020 align:middle line:90% And yet, I know poets-- and-- 00:05:52.020 --> 00:05:54.510 align:middle line:84% I was talking about Michael Palmer, very slow, 00:05:54.510 --> 00:05:56.970 align:middle line:90% very methodical, revised a lot. 00:05:56.970 --> 00:06:01.770 align:middle line:84% And I can't tell, looking at the poems, that happened. 00:06:01.770 --> 00:06:06.120 align:middle line:84% But that's the way he works, with a lot of reading 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:09.570 align:middle line:90% of things, philosophy of things. 00:06:09.570 --> 00:06:11.003 align:middle line:90% So it's different. 00:06:11.003 --> 00:06:11.728 align:middle line:90% Sam. 00:06:11.728 --> 00:06:13.770 align:middle line:84% I wanted to talk a little bit about your process. 00:06:13.770 --> 00:06:16.315 align:middle line:84% And you talked a lot about Kerouac and that inspiration 00:06:16.315 --> 00:06:16.860 align:middle line:90% in reading. 00:06:16.860 --> 00:06:20.140 align:middle line:84% And I understand he wrote On the Road 00:06:20.140 --> 00:06:25.500 align:middle line:84% in six weeks, some very short period of time, in a frenzy, 00:06:25.500 --> 00:06:28.390 align:middle line:90% just in this very focused place. 00:06:28.390 --> 00:06:32.580 align:middle line:84% So in your process in the improvisation 00:06:32.580 --> 00:06:35.370 align:middle line:84% and that immediacy, do you give yourself 00:06:35.370 --> 00:06:38.520 align:middle line:90% a delineated period of time? 00:06:38.520 --> 00:06:41.640 align:middle line:90% Or do you find that you-- 00:06:41.640 --> 00:06:44.430 align:middle line:84% well, can you talk a little bit about your process 00:06:44.430 --> 00:06:46.275 align:middle line:84% in the writing or how's that changed? 00:06:46.275 --> 00:06:47.040 align:middle line:90% Hmm. 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:51.570 align:middle line:84% Well, I don't think I've ever given myself a limit in time. 00:06:51.570 --> 00:06:54.600 align:middle line:84% I think the work proposes it itself. 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:59.850 align:middle line:84% And in terms of, as I just said, if it doesn't work, 00:06:59.850 --> 00:07:03.510 align:middle line:84% usually, you know right away and then move on. 00:07:03.510 --> 00:07:07.710 align:middle line:84% Of course, Kerouac, actually, the final version 00:07:07.710 --> 00:07:10.830 align:middle line:84% of On the Road that we have was written very short. 00:07:10.830 --> 00:07:13.140 align:middle line:84% But he actually had written earlier versions 00:07:13.140 --> 00:07:17.920 align:middle line:90% of that book years before. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:18.720 align:middle line:90% He tried. 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:21.540 align:middle line:90% He couldn't quite get it. 00:07:21.540 --> 00:07:23.880 align:middle line:84% And then he put it aside and he'd write something else. 00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:26.980 align:middle line:84% So that was a revision, in a way. 00:07:26.980 --> 00:07:30.510 align:middle line:84% Although, he always claimed that he didn't believe in revisions. 00:07:30.510 --> 00:07:34.240 align:middle line:84% But I think he actually did drop a few words here and there. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:34.740 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:35.460 align:middle line:90% We all do. 00:07:35.460 --> 00:07:37.043 align:middle line:84% Maybe, we don't want to talk about it. 00:07:37.043 --> 00:07:38.930 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:07:38.930 --> 00:07:40.113 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:07:40.113 --> 00:07:42.030 align:middle line:84% During class last week, we took a little-- cut 00:07:42.030 --> 00:07:43.237 align:middle line:90% a few pieces of your work. 00:07:43.237 --> 00:07:44.070 align:middle line:90% And we looked at it. 00:07:44.070 --> 00:07:45.420 align:middle line:90% And we read it. 00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:47.880 align:middle line:84% We tried to read it silently to ourselves. 00:07:47.880 --> 00:07:50.830 align:middle line:84% And then a lot of people in my class in particular, 00:07:50.830 --> 00:07:54.030 align:middle line:84% we could not be able to read it because we weren't used to how 00:07:54.030 --> 00:07:55.590 align:middle line:90% which I was proposed. 00:07:55.590 --> 00:07:57.870 align:middle line:84% For example, I remember one part was from, 00:07:57.870 --> 00:07:59.970 align:middle line:84% you took the phrase from time to time 00:07:59.970 --> 00:08:04.170 align:middle line:84% and you jumbled it up just ever so slightly as, I timed to 00:08:04.170 --> 00:08:06.630 align:middle line:90% from time, for example. 00:08:06.630 --> 00:08:09.900 align:middle line:84% And human beings have a natural tendency 00:08:09.900 --> 00:08:14.280 align:middle line:84% to associate phrases with certain feelings. 00:08:14.280 --> 00:08:16.440 align:middle line:84% And when we were reading your work, 00:08:16.440 --> 00:08:18.810 align:middle line:84% we automatically tried to reassemble 00:08:18.810 --> 00:08:20.760 align:middle line:90% what was supposed to be said. 00:08:20.760 --> 00:08:24.540 align:middle line:84% I feel like, is that a certain resistance 00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:26.220 align:middle line:90% against that language? 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:28.120 align:middle line:84% Or is that part of your input improvisation? 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:32.080 align:middle line:84% This is against emotional language or things that are-- 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:32.580 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:34.380 align:middle line:90% I don't think so. 00:08:34.380 --> 00:08:38.909 align:middle line:84% Because when I look back at works, 00:08:38.909 --> 00:08:40.973 align:middle line:84% I think in the heat of writing them, 00:08:40.973 --> 00:08:42.390 align:middle line:84% you're not thinking of that thing. 00:08:42.390 --> 00:08:44.070 align:middle line:84% But later, I can look back and I can 00:08:44.070 --> 00:08:48.750 align:middle line:84% see that there's some phrase or some section is 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:54.660 align:middle line:84% related to some pretty strong, emotional moment of my life. 00:08:54.660 --> 00:08:59.490 align:middle line:84% And I don't mean just a huge cataclysm, but something that's 00:08:59.490 --> 00:09:03.000 align:middle line:84% memorable as, that moment felt like that, 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:08.040 align:middle line:84% where something happened between me and somebody or-- 00:09:08.040 --> 00:09:10.770 align:middle line:90% I don't reject that. 00:09:10.770 --> 00:09:12.240 align:middle line:90% I just don't. 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:16.830 align:middle line:84% My mind wants to go on to see what, then, I 00:09:16.830 --> 00:09:21.090 align:middle line:84% can jump to from that, what that could be associated to, 00:09:21.090 --> 00:09:24.690 align:middle line:84% instead of lengthily writing out some emotional experience. 00:09:24.690 --> 00:09:28.440 align:middle line:84% But I don't think I'm even capable of doing it adequately. 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:30.210 align:middle line:90% I wonder if anyone is, really. 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:33.420 align:middle line:84% You can spark off something, a little phrase 00:09:33.420 --> 00:09:36.700 align:middle line:84% or a great phrase, and hit somebody in their mind. 00:09:36.700 --> 00:09:38.970 align:middle line:84% And they all have an emotional experience with it. 00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:40.830 align:middle line:90% I don't go for that. 00:09:40.830 --> 00:09:42.240 align:middle line:90% I don't think you can. 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:43.500 align:middle line:90% I think that happens-- 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:44.580 align:middle line:90% that's a plus. 00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:45.390 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:09:45.390 --> 00:09:47.315 align:middle line:90% If you can get it. 00:09:47.315 --> 00:09:48.690 align:middle line:84% I guess there are some poems I've 00:09:48.690 --> 00:09:53.100 align:middle line:84% written that are more cogent in that way, where I get stuck 00:09:53.100 --> 00:09:55.620 align:middle line:90% on one image or something. 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:58.860 align:middle line:84% And it was good enough to keep it. 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:00.650 align:middle line:90% I don't have any real proposal. 00:10:00.650 --> 00:10:02.970 align:middle line:84% I tried to do everything I could think of. 00:10:02.970 --> 00:10:03.750 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:06.990 align:middle line:84% So I don't have a poetics in that sense. 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:10.390 align:middle line:90% At least, it's a multiple one. 00:10:10.390 --> 00:10:11.880 align:middle line:84% I've been influenced by everybody. 00:10:11.880 --> 00:10:17.160 align:middle line:84% And when I started out, I tried to write like Kerouac, and then 00:10:17.160 --> 00:10:20.400 align:middle line:84% like Williams and Creeley, and moved on 00:10:20.400 --> 00:10:22.830 align:middle line:90% to Ashbery and those guys. 00:10:22.830 --> 00:10:26.010 align:middle line:84% And you do have to imitate, I think, 00:10:26.010 --> 00:10:29.070 align:middle line:84% to get the shape of other people's work. 00:10:29.070 --> 00:10:34.100 align:middle line:84% And eventually, though, you find that you're doing, I guess, 00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:36.335 align:middle line:90% what you're supposed to do. 00:10:36.335 --> 00:10:38.960 align:middle line:84% But I don't know who's going to tell me I'm supposed to do it-- 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:39.470 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:41.600 align:middle line:90% --instead of me. 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.630 align:middle line:84% As Ted Berrigan said, a little guy in the back of your head 00:10:44.630 --> 00:10:45.975 align:middle line:90% takes care of things like that. 00:10:45.975 --> 00:10:46.475 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:10:46.475 --> 00:10:47.360 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah? 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.278 align:middle line:90% You got one of those, Ted? 00:10:49.278 --> 00:10:49.820 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:10:49.820 --> 00:10:50.750 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:10:50.750 --> 00:10:53.400 align:middle line:84% Where do I get to sign one of those up? 00:10:53.400 --> 00:10:55.460 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:56.930 align:middle line:90% A question over here for you. 00:10:56.930 --> 00:10:58.490 align:middle line:90% Yeah? 00:10:58.490 --> 00:11:01.070 align:middle line:84% Given the improvisatory nature of your work, 00:11:01.070 --> 00:11:03.080 align:middle line:84% do you think that there are, nevertheless, 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:05.780 align:middle line:84% any themes, any ideas, any concepts 00:11:05.780 --> 00:11:09.060 align:middle line:84% that prevail or predominate across the board 00:11:09.060 --> 00:11:10.653 align:middle line:84% with the things that you've done? 00:11:10.653 --> 00:11:12.320 align:middle line:84% Or do you think that they are really all 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.920 align:middle line:84% just truly in the moment and reflecting whatever, 00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:18.470 align:middle line:84% to use your word, Professor, whatever ambience? 00:11:18.470 --> 00:11:24.120 align:middle line:84% I think there's almost too many, I think would be the problem 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:25.850 align:middle line:90% or could be the problem. 00:11:25.850 --> 00:11:28.670 align:middle line:84% There's obviously subjects that I'm totally 00:11:28.670 --> 00:11:34.220 align:middle line:84% immersed in, like geology, certain music, certain movies, 00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:36.920 align:middle line:90% certain literature. 00:11:36.920 --> 00:11:40.250 align:middle line:90% It's all reflected in there. 00:11:40.250 --> 00:11:42.440 align:middle line:84% Maybe I'm not going to sit down and-- 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:45.170 align:middle line:84% I did do that one book where I talked about jazz. 00:11:45.170 --> 00:11:49.640 align:middle line:84% And so I fool myself into doing that by using letters 00:11:49.640 --> 00:11:52.010 align:middle line:84% that I had written to my friend David Meltzer when we 00:11:52.010 --> 00:11:54.110 align:middle line:90% lived on the opposite coasts. 00:11:54.110 --> 00:11:58.250 align:middle line:84% And we would exchange tapes and talk about the same music. 00:11:58.250 --> 00:12:00.080 align:middle line:90% So I was able to use that. 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.680 align:middle line:84% I find it very hard to conservatively sit down 00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:07.970 align:middle line:84% and say, OK, I'm not going to say what I think about, 00:12:07.970 --> 00:12:10.490 align:middle line:90% Charlie Parker or something. 00:12:10.490 --> 00:12:15.060 align:middle line:84% It's just too claustrophobic or something. 00:12:15.060 --> 00:12:18.930 align:middle line:84% I almost have to fool myself into popping off something. 00:12:18.930 --> 00:12:21.800 align:middle line:84% When I think I'm doing something else, 00:12:21.800 --> 00:12:26.250 align:middle line:84% I fool myself into not being so strict. 00:12:26.250 --> 00:12:28.740 align:middle line:84% And I don't think a great phrase has 00:12:28.740 --> 00:12:31.230 align:middle line:90% come from being strict anyway. 00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:32.730 align:middle line:84% There's a lot of bad books that have 00:12:32.730 --> 00:12:34.310 align:middle line:90% been written about jazz, so. 00:12:34.310 --> 00:12:34.920 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:12:34.920 --> 00:12:36.720 align:middle line:84% So it grew up in a different relationship 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:38.250 align:middle line:90% to attention, in a way. 00:12:38.250 --> 00:12:38.860 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:40.830 align:middle line:84% So attention is always over there, 00:12:40.830 --> 00:12:42.630 align:middle line:84% just outside of that thing that you seem 00:12:42.630 --> 00:12:44.490 align:middle line:90% to be focusing on in some way. 00:12:44.490 --> 00:12:46.890 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I want to be in that. 00:12:46.890 --> 00:12:50.340 align:middle line:84% I don't want to figure out some way to talk about it, 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:54.300 align:middle line:84% even though that might be good, in a way, for something. 00:12:54.300 --> 00:12:56.627 align:middle line:90% I feel like I want it far from-- 00:12:56.627 --> 00:12:57.210 align:middle line:90% good question. 00:12:57.210 --> 00:12:58.350 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:12:58.350 --> 00:13:00.330 align:middle line:90% 00:13:00.330 --> 00:13:02.370 align:middle line:90% I don't have-- 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:02.970 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:13:02.970 --> 00:13:05.670 align:middle line:84% It's very hard to say, because I don't 00:13:05.670 --> 00:13:09.990 align:middle line:84% know what I'm really doing when I'm listening back to my work. 00:13:09.990 --> 00:13:13.560 align:middle line:84% I'm not looking at it the way you would, because I wrote it. 00:13:13.560 --> 00:13:17.760 align:middle line:84% And I don't really remember writing it. 00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:21.930 align:middle line:84% That moment, that's a drawback of the moment, momentary work, 00:13:21.930 --> 00:13:25.080 align:middle line:84% is you can't recreate the all of that moment. 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:26.160 align:middle line:90% You know you wrote it. 00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:28.290 align:middle line:84% But there's a familiarity about that. 00:13:28.290 --> 00:13:32.790 align:middle line:90% But I couldn't-- 00:13:32.790 --> 00:13:34.845 align:middle line:84% I'm somehow, like I said, that openness, 00:13:34.845 --> 00:13:37.860 align:middle line:84% it was that poem that he read, I was 00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:40.800 align:middle line:84% amazed that there was so much poetic comment 00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:45.450 align:middle line:84% in that poem about, actually, ways of writing, the position 00:13:45.450 --> 00:13:48.780 align:middle line:84% I was in when I wrote this, and looking out the window. 00:13:48.780 --> 00:13:51.750 align:middle line:84% It almost seemed like a romantic stanza 00:13:51.750 --> 00:13:56.490 align:middle line:84% with asides about writing a romantic stanza, which 00:13:56.490 --> 00:14:00.120 align:middle line:84% I don't think of myself as someone who writes that. 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:05.210 align:middle line:84% So I'm more various than I even think I am. 00:14:05.210 --> 00:14:05.910 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:14:05.910 --> 00:14:07.410 align:middle line:84% I can't really answer your question. 00:14:07.410 --> 00:14:09.430 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:14:09.430 --> 00:14:12.420 align:middle line:90% But I've had all those thoughts. 00:14:12.420 --> 00:14:15.780 align:middle line:84% And a lot of that stuff is in there, believe me. 00:14:15.780 --> 00:14:19.550 align:middle line:84% And I don't necessarily mean you to get it either. 00:14:19.550 --> 00:14:23.250 align:middle line:84% I may want you to get the result of it, which is, to me, much 00:14:23.250 --> 00:14:27.480 align:middle line:84% more interesting, is the flash and combination of a lot 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:29.730 align:middle line:84% of these things that, when they're put together, 00:14:29.730 --> 00:14:33.450 align:middle line:84% it's as if or that have not been together. 00:14:33.450 --> 00:14:36.960 align:middle line:84% That seems like a major distinction between something 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.460 align:middle line:84% like Kerouac's method and your own, in that I feel, 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:44.730 align:middle line:84% and I could be wrong about this, that there is a part of Kerouac 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:46.770 align:middle line:84% which is entirely about the reader 00:14:46.770 --> 00:14:48.550 align:middle line:84% getting it, being in that moment, 00:14:48.550 --> 00:14:53.700 align:middle line:84% caught up in a verisimilitude of his own excitement. 00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:57.660 align:middle line:84% Whereas, as you say, that we're not always asked to get it, 00:14:57.660 --> 00:15:00.270 align:middle line:84% whatever that it is, whether it's simply 00:15:00.270 --> 00:15:02.820 align:middle line:84% a figure, or a representation, or something 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.500 align:middle line:90% like that in your own work. 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:05.760 align:middle line:90% What do you think-- 00:15:05.760 --> 00:15:08.390 align:middle line:84% why do you feel like you're different in that way? 00:15:08.390 --> 00:15:12.222 align:middle line:84% There's that more resistance to a representational system 00:15:12.222 --> 00:15:13.680 align:middle line:84% in your work as opposed to Kerouac. 00:15:13.680 --> 00:15:16.740 align:middle line:84% Well-- yeah, Kerouac had several kinds of work that he did, 00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:20.700 align:middle line:84% and the most famous one being those trips. 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:25.080 align:middle line:84% And books about trips and books about people 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.930 align:middle line:84% were his heroes, Cassidy, and Gary Snyder, 00:15:28.930 --> 00:15:30.690 align:middle line:90% and people like that. 00:15:30.690 --> 00:15:32.500 align:middle line:84% And then he wrote it in his poetry, 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:35.850 align:middle line:84% or what is called poetry, like short lines. 00:15:35.850 --> 00:15:38.450 align:middle line:84% Or certainly, in a work like "Old Angel Midnight," 00:15:38.450 --> 00:15:40.242 align:middle line:90% it's very-- 00:15:40.242 --> 00:15:42.970 align:middle line:90% it's quite close to what I do. 00:15:42.970 --> 00:15:46.550 align:middle line:84% I was really glad to see him doing that. 00:15:46.550 --> 00:15:48.900 align:middle line:84% It was really inspiring, that he-- 00:15:48.900 --> 00:15:52.080 align:middle line:84% and that work has been totally trashed by everybody. 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.270 align:middle line:84% All the critics hate it; they don't get that. 00:15:54.270 --> 00:15:59.010 align:middle line:84% They want the sociological view of Kerouac. 00:15:59.010 --> 00:16:02.070 align:middle line:90% He was a figure of that time. 00:16:02.070 --> 00:16:04.890 align:middle line:84% And he suffered terribly from it. 00:16:04.890 --> 00:16:07.580 align:middle line:90% But that's his tragedy. 00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:11.070 align:middle line:90% But I don't read-- 00:16:11.070 --> 00:16:13.780 align:middle line:84% there's a wonderful description of him writing. 00:16:13.780 --> 00:16:17.190 align:middle line:84% I don't know how many people ever saw him actually writing. 00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:20.910 align:middle line:84% But Philip Whalen, in an interview, 00:16:20.910 --> 00:16:24.270 align:middle line:84% in a book of interviews with Phil, 00:16:24.270 --> 00:16:30.570 align:middle line:84% described Jack sitting at a typewriter with notebooks 00:16:30.570 --> 00:16:34.050 align:middle line:84% on the desk to his left, which were sketched 00:16:34.050 --> 00:16:37.180 align:middle line:90% in pencil on these trips. 00:16:37.180 --> 00:16:40.050 align:middle line:84% And it's almost like he's a musician. 00:16:40.050 --> 00:16:43.290 align:middle line:84% And these are the chord changes of a tune 00:16:43.290 --> 00:16:44.850 align:middle line:90% that he's improvising. 00:16:44.850 --> 00:16:47.730 align:middle line:84% And he'll type like mad, so fast. 00:16:47.730 --> 00:16:49.740 align:middle line:84% Phil said, all you hear was the bell going ding, 00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:50.698 align:middle line:90% ding, ding, ding, ding. 00:16:50.698 --> 00:16:52.320 align:middle line:90% It was just so fast. 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:53.370 align:middle line:90% And then he would stop. 00:16:53.370 --> 00:16:56.160 align:middle line:84% And then he would cross something out on the notebook 00:16:56.160 --> 00:17:00.720 align:middle line:84% or skip a page and then take off on another one. 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.960 align:middle line:84% He was using a structure, obviously, the trip, which 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.720 align:middle line:84% had a time, and a duration, and something 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:08.880 align:middle line:90% happened after something. 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.670 align:middle line:84% But everything else, it was like he was playing an instrument. 00:17:11.670 --> 00:17:13.230 align:middle line:90% He'd be playing so-- 00:17:13.230 --> 00:17:14.950 align:middle line:84% Phil said, he was writing so fast, 00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:18.329 align:middle line:84% I don't know how he had time to even think of the words. 00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:21.599 align:middle line:90% I thought, well, Charlie Parker. 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:24.690 align:middle line:90% 00:17:24.690 --> 00:17:26.470 align:middle line:90% Something to be aspired to. 00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:28.059 align:middle line:90% Yeah? 00:17:28.059 --> 00:17:29.480 align:middle line:90% Or-- 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:31.150 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:32.217 align:middle line:90% 00:17:32.217 --> 00:17:32.800 align:middle line:90% Oh, I'm sorry. 00:17:32.800 --> 00:17:33.585 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah? 00:17:33.585 --> 00:17:34.455 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:17:34.455 --> 00:17:37.470 align:middle line:84% When you're talking about Kerouac, 00:17:37.470 --> 00:17:40.350 align:middle line:84% words seem to sit on top of a rhythm. 00:17:40.350 --> 00:17:43.660 align:middle line:84% And I think, as you know, rhythm pushing in that way. 00:17:43.660 --> 00:17:46.320 align:middle line:84% But then inside of my head, it's flipping around, 00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:50.520 align:middle line:84% this definition of poetry as syllables juxtaposed in beauty. 00:17:50.520 --> 00:17:53.250 align:middle line:84% And what I think Creeley really liked to say sometimes 00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:55.050 align:middle line:84% about the American language as being 00:17:55.050 --> 00:17:59.370 align:middle line:84% primarily or overwhelmingly, the words are one-syllable words. 00:17:59.370 --> 00:18:00.240 align:middle line:90% Oh. 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:02.370 align:middle line:84% So I wonder if you feel any tension 00:18:02.370 --> 00:18:07.080 align:middle line:84% between the push of a rhythm and the dwelling on the syllable 00:18:07.080 --> 00:18:10.260 align:middle line:84% as though the syllables make the rhythm as they go? 00:18:10.260 --> 00:18:11.030 align:middle line:90% Oh, certainly. 00:18:11.030 --> 00:18:13.570 align:middle line:84% And is this even a legitimate question? 00:18:13.570 --> 00:18:15.480 align:middle line:90% I've never heard Bob say that. 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:16.740 align:middle line:90% Is that in print? 00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:18.510 align:middle line:90% Or is [INAUDIBLE]? 00:18:18.510 --> 00:18:23.160 align:middle line:84% I think it is somewhere, maybe, in The Collected Essays. 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.890 align:middle line:84% But I might be remembering him saying it live too. 00:18:25.890 --> 00:18:27.910 align:middle line:90% I've heard him several times. 00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:30.540 align:middle line:84% It's a wonderful thing to think about. 00:18:30.540 --> 00:18:31.140 align:middle line:90% I know-- 00:18:31.140 --> 00:18:32.723 align:middle line:84% Yeah, when he talked about it, because 00:18:32.723 --> 00:18:34.830 align:middle line:84% of the one-syllable thing, it could turn anywhere. 00:18:34.830 --> 00:18:36.030 align:middle line:90% It could turn on a dime. 00:18:36.030 --> 00:18:39.177 align:middle line:84% But the Germanic and Anglo-Saxon strains in English, 00:18:39.177 --> 00:18:40.260 align:middle line:90% they're more one-syllable. 00:18:40.260 --> 00:18:40.780 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:18:40.780 --> 00:18:41.280 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:42.900 align:middle line:90% Definitely, yeah. 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:47.012 align:middle line:84% Those are the real engine, I think, of the English. 00:18:47.012 --> 00:18:48.720 align:middle line:84% And those single syllable, you can really 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:50.730 align:middle line:90% hit with them, just amazing. 00:18:50.730 --> 00:18:51.240 align:middle line:90% Just a-- 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:57.300 align:middle line:84% I asked Bob, he, Creeley, he had jazz in his life. 00:18:57.300 --> 00:18:59.580 align:middle line:84% And I was always trying to get him 00:18:59.580 --> 00:19:02.760 align:middle line:84% to write about that for all people, 00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:04.890 align:middle line:84% to tell Bob Creeley to sit down and write 00:19:04.890 --> 00:19:08.670 align:middle line:84% an essay about remembering when he lived in New Hampshire early 00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:10.953 align:middle line:84% on, the chicken ranch or what it was. 00:19:10.953 --> 00:19:12.120 align:middle line:90% And he'd come out of Boston. 00:19:12.120 --> 00:19:14.730 align:middle line:84% This would be late '40s, early '50s, I guess. 00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:16.170 align:middle line:84% And he would go to the jazz clubs. 00:19:16.170 --> 00:19:18.510 align:middle line:84% And he heard Charlie Parker, and Miles Davis, 00:19:18.510 --> 00:19:20.220 align:middle line:90% and all these guys. 00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:22.380 align:middle line:84% And he's mentioned them in poems that 00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:25.350 align:middle line:84% are in passing and essays, and talking 00:19:25.350 --> 00:19:28.440 align:middle line:84% about how Miles-- the famous one is how Miles was 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:32.310 align:middle line:84% able to make it sound like the music slowed down by the way he 00:19:32.310 --> 00:19:33.720 align:middle line:90% phrased or speed it up. 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.390 align:middle line:84% But actually, the four-four bars were going right 00:19:36.390 --> 00:19:37.320 align:middle line:90% at the same tempo. 00:19:37.320 --> 00:19:39.780 align:middle line:84% He was able-- and that's a wonderful thing 00:19:39.780 --> 00:19:40.920 align:middle line:90% to say about jazz. 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.740 align:middle line:84% And this place, this solo by Sonny Rollins, 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.030 align:middle line:90% I could show you what-- 00:19:45.030 --> 00:19:47.280 align:middle line:84% it just seems like he's going twice as fast. 00:19:47.280 --> 00:19:49.360 align:middle line:84% And all of a sudden, he's going-- 00:19:49.360 --> 00:19:50.610 align:middle line:90% really, this tempo has slowed. 00:19:50.610 --> 00:19:51.585 align:middle line:90% And it isn't. 00:19:51.585 --> 00:19:53.370 align:middle line:84% It's just the way he's phrased it. 00:19:53.370 --> 00:19:54.450 align:middle line:90% It's just magic. 00:19:54.450 --> 00:19:55.530 align:middle line:90% But Bob dug that. 00:19:55.530 --> 00:19:58.020 align:middle line:84% And I always thought, I want to know about-- 00:19:58.020 --> 00:19:59.220 align:middle line:90% because he did it. 00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:00.540 align:middle line:90% He's older than me. 00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:03.450 align:middle line:84% And it was the generation before that saw those jazz clubs. 00:20:03.450 --> 00:20:06.330 align:middle line:84% If I started going to those jazz clubs, I was in Providence. 00:20:06.330 --> 00:20:09.000 align:middle line:84% And I would go to Boston, and go to Storyville, and the Stable, 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.210 align:middle line:84% and those places in the mid '50s. 00:20:12.210 --> 00:20:15.330 align:middle line:90% That was my illumination. 00:20:15.330 --> 00:20:16.980 align:middle line:90% But I didn't see Charlie Parker. 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:19.920 align:middle line:84% And I didn't see Miles in that early time. 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.250 align:middle line:84% And a lot of the musicians that played with him then, 00:20:23.250 --> 00:20:24.090 align:middle line:90% you could have seen. 00:20:24.090 --> 00:20:26.560 align:middle line:84% And there's a drummer, Roy Haynes, 00:20:26.560 --> 00:20:28.650 align:middle line:84% one of the great drummers who's still alive, still 00:20:28.650 --> 00:20:33.660 align:middle line:84% playing in his '90s or something [INAUDIBLE].. 00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:35.130 align:middle line:90% He can't hardly talk. 00:20:35.130 --> 00:20:38.342 align:middle line:84% He talks, and he repeats, and he gets into memory holes. 00:20:38.342 --> 00:20:40.050 align:middle line:84% But when he plays, it's just magnificent. 00:20:40.050 --> 00:20:43.230 align:middle line:84% But Bob probably saw him playing behind Bird 00:20:43.230 --> 00:20:46.680 align:middle line:84% in one of those little dives in Boston. 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:50.220 align:middle line:84% And I always thought, he's a guy who was there. 00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:50.850 align:middle line:90% He's a poet. 00:20:50.850 --> 00:20:54.510 align:middle line:84% And if I'd see him and somebody came up again 00:20:54.510 --> 00:20:55.570 align:middle line:90% to talk to me about it. 00:20:55.570 --> 00:20:58.580 align:middle line:84% But maybe, he really couldn't remember a lot. 00:20:58.580 --> 00:21:00.300 align:middle line:84% But I know I've lost a lot of the stuff. 00:21:00.300 --> 00:21:02.550 align:middle line:84% If somebody asked me to describe something 00:21:02.550 --> 00:21:06.140 align:middle line:84% I saw back in Boston in those days, 00:21:06.140 --> 00:21:08.970 align:middle line:84% I'd probably be mumbling something about how great 00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:09.785 align:middle line:90% it was. 00:21:09.785 --> 00:21:10.285 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:21:10.285 --> 00:21:11.580 align:middle line:90% But it's really-- 00:21:11.580 --> 00:21:13.250 align:middle line:84% I can't get rid of their experience. 00:21:13.250 --> 00:21:14.310 align:middle line:90% Yeah? 00:21:14.310 --> 00:21:16.350 align:middle line:84% We had the opportunity to go to lunch before. 00:21:16.350 --> 00:21:20.210 align:middle line:84% And we talked a little bit about your early meeting 00:21:20.210 --> 00:21:22.870 align:middle line:84% with Bernadette Mayer, and encouraging her to write. 00:21:22.870 --> 00:21:28.800 align:middle line:84% When I think about folks writing in the '60s and '70s in an 00:21:28.800 --> 00:21:32.340 align:middle line:84% experimental strain, I think about the women of that time 00:21:32.340 --> 00:21:36.450 align:middle line:84% who made a long run of it, [INAUDIBLE],, [INAUDIBLE] Pino, 00:21:36.450 --> 00:21:39.360 align:middle line:84% Diane di Prima, [INAUDIBLE],, Mayer. 00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:41.760 align:middle line:90% I run out of names after that. 00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:45.660 align:middle line:84% And I guess I wonder a little bit if you can think about, 00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:47.260 align:middle line:90% what was it like-- 00:21:47.260 --> 00:21:50.910 align:middle line:84% we also talked about scenes developing out 00:21:50.910 --> 00:21:54.240 align:middle line:84% of networks of affiliation and [INAUDIBLE] guys hanging out. 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.653 align:middle line:84% And what was it like for women in the '60s and '70s 00:21:57.653 --> 00:21:58.320 align:middle line:90% trying to write? 00:21:58.320 --> 00:21:58.862 align:middle line:90% It was tough. 00:21:58.862 --> 00:22:00.210 align:middle line:90% It was very tough. 00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:01.995 align:middle line:90% And she was a tough person. 00:22:01.995 --> 00:22:04.500 align:middle line:90% 00:22:04.500 --> 00:22:09.060 align:middle line:84% I mean that in the best way, Bernadette Mayer. 00:22:09.060 --> 00:22:12.720 align:middle line:84% I think I was telling you before that the first time 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:17.580 align:middle line:84% I met her was at a reading series, which Ted Berrigan had 00:22:17.580 --> 00:22:21.090 align:middle line:84% in 1966 at the Folklore Center in New York City, which 00:22:21.090 --> 00:22:23.890 align:middle line:84% was the first reading I ever gave in public. 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:27.870 align:middle line:84% And he came, of course, with this incredibly beautiful 00:22:27.870 --> 00:22:29.610 align:middle line:90% young girl on his arm. 00:22:29.610 --> 00:22:32.260 align:middle line:90% And she never said a word. 00:22:32.260 --> 00:22:33.360 align:middle line:90% And that was Bernadette. 00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:35.670 align:middle line:84% That was the first time I ever laid eyes on her. 00:22:35.670 --> 00:22:38.010 align:middle line:84% And then I didn't see her again for a couple of years. 00:22:38.010 --> 00:22:39.600 align:middle line:90% And I was living in California. 00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:43.650 align:middle line:84% And she was with her boyfriend Ed Bose, who was a filmmaker. 00:22:43.650 --> 00:22:47.970 align:middle line:84% And they drove a sports car to California and came to see me. 00:22:47.970 --> 00:22:50.640 align:middle line:84% And then she was the Bernadette Mayer. 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.210 align:middle line:84% We'd never stopped talking to each other, just-- 00:22:54.210 --> 00:22:56.130 align:middle line:84% but I know she had a lot of trouble 00:22:56.130 --> 00:23:00.210 align:middle line:84% in the New York scene, which was largely male. 00:23:00.210 --> 00:23:03.315 align:middle line:84% But she liked to be what she called rude. 00:23:03.315 --> 00:23:05.520 align:middle line:90% She loved the word rude. 00:23:05.520 --> 00:23:06.973 align:middle line:84% And that meant getting in the face 00:23:06.973 --> 00:23:08.265 align:middle line:90% of some of these motherfuckers. 00:23:08.265 --> 00:23:08.765 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:23:08.765 --> 00:23:10.212 align:middle line:90% They say something to you. 00:23:10.212 --> 00:23:11.670 align:middle line:84% They want to get you in bed or they 00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:15.600 align:middle line:84% want you to put up with some shit, tell them. 00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:16.410 align:middle line:90% She would. 00:23:16.410 --> 00:23:20.130 align:middle line:84% And she'd blow smoke in their face, pull out this cigarette 00:23:20.130 --> 00:23:21.030 align:middle line:90% and stamp on it. 00:23:21.030 --> 00:23:22.105 align:middle line:90% That was Bernadette. 00:23:22.105 --> 00:23:22.605 align:middle line:90% Wow. 00:23:22.605 --> 00:23:23.730 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:25.140 align:middle line:90% Incredible. 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.360 align:middle line:90% So she found a way. 00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:29.760 align:middle line:84% I suppose she found a way to enjoy 00:23:29.760 --> 00:23:32.190 align:middle line:90% those difficulties in a way. 00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:34.580 align:middle line:84% And there were some guys that deserved it. 00:23:34.580 --> 00:23:37.260 align:middle line:84% They were getting away with murder. 00:23:37.260 --> 00:23:41.430 align:middle line:84% But her mind, I think I was talking about 00:23:41.430 --> 00:23:43.170 align:middle line:84% how, when I first met her then, she 00:23:43.170 --> 00:23:47.520 align:middle line:84% was more involved with politics and a hippie idealism. 00:23:47.520 --> 00:23:50.400 align:middle line:84% This is like, wait, '60s, early '70s. 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.480 align:middle line:84% And I had actually published some 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:57.420 align:middle line:84% of her work in Joglars magazine five or so years earlier. 00:23:57.420 --> 00:23:59.910 align:middle line:90% And I said, you've got to write. 00:23:59.910 --> 00:24:01.590 align:middle line:90% This is genius. 00:24:01.590 --> 00:24:07.410 align:middle line:84% And I think I had some small part in getting 00:24:07.410 --> 00:24:08.327 align:middle line:90% her back on the track. 00:24:08.327 --> 00:24:10.618 align:middle line:84% And obviously, she was somebody who was going to write. 00:24:10.618 --> 00:24:11.970 align:middle line:90% There was no doubt about it. 00:24:11.970 --> 00:24:17.160 align:middle line:84% But it helps, maybe, to have some guy say too, 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.910 align:middle line:84% who didn't have any other motives, and just say, 00:24:20.910 --> 00:24:21.730 align:middle line:90% this is great work. 00:24:21.730 --> 00:24:22.230 align:middle line:90% Go on. 00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:24.015 align:middle line:90% I want to see it. 00:24:24.015 --> 00:24:25.812 align:middle line:90% That's all it takes. 00:24:25.812 --> 00:24:27.180 align:middle line:90% Yeah? 00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:28.930 align:middle line:84% Earlier, you mentioned about how, 00:24:28.930 --> 00:24:31.305 align:middle line:84% when we were talking about things of value at a general-- 00:24:31.305 --> 00:24:33.090 align:middle line:84% you didn't really have a general theme. 00:24:33.090 --> 00:24:35.550 align:middle line:84% Most of it was improv on the fly. 00:24:35.550 --> 00:24:38.280 align:middle line:84% You couldn't get that emotion, it would fly away. 00:24:38.280 --> 00:24:42.630 align:middle line:84% And I saw that as you're aspiring to music. 00:24:42.630 --> 00:24:45.330 align:middle line:84% But once you hear music, it's done. 00:24:45.330 --> 00:24:47.670 align:middle line:84% Do you feel like improvisation is 00:24:47.670 --> 00:24:50.010 align:middle line:84% like aspiring to a condition in music, in the sense 00:24:50.010 --> 00:24:53.970 align:middle line:84% that it's living up to that condition of art? 00:24:53.970 --> 00:24:55.960 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I do. 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:58.140 align:middle line:90% Or at least, I hope. 00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:00.510 align:middle line:84% I've devoted a lot of time to that hope. 00:25:00.510 --> 00:25:03.780 align:middle line:90% 00:25:03.780 --> 00:25:06.510 align:middle line:84% I don't believe there's one way to do anything. 00:25:06.510 --> 00:25:10.650 align:middle line:84% But that's been my way because of the combination 00:25:10.650 --> 00:25:17.175 align:middle line:84% of the impulses of education or exposure that I had. 00:25:17.175 --> 00:25:19.320 align:middle line:84% Like I say, I started with music. 00:25:19.320 --> 00:25:25.140 align:middle line:84% And I didn't really write anything until I was 19 or 20. 00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:27.210 align:middle line:90% And then I didn't-- 00:25:27.210 --> 00:25:29.310 align:middle line:90% and Kerouac got me on the road. 00:25:29.310 --> 00:25:31.812 align:middle line:84% But I didn't really write much of it. 00:25:31.812 --> 00:25:33.270 align:middle line:84% I probably scribbled in a notebook. 00:25:33.270 --> 00:25:34.562 align:middle line:90% And it was all really imitated. 00:25:34.562 --> 00:25:38.030 align:middle line:84% But I didn't really conservatively write 00:25:38.030 --> 00:25:40.980 align:middle line:90% until a few years later. 00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:43.080 align:middle line:84% When you're overwhelmed with a million influences 00:25:43.080 --> 00:25:46.650 align:middle line:84% and you're thinking, you despair of ever getting anything out 00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:49.170 align:middle line:90% from under that. 00:25:49.170 --> 00:25:51.390 align:middle line:90% You do if you keep it up. 00:25:51.390 --> 00:25:56.100 align:middle line:84% I was saying to somebody earlier that the idea of-- 00:25:56.100 --> 00:26:03.270 align:middle line:84% that if you do this writing, which is pushing the edge, 00:26:03.270 --> 00:26:05.100 align:middle line:84% you really have to do a lot of it. 00:26:05.100 --> 00:26:06.180 align:middle line:90% And it has a-- 00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:08.070 align:middle line:84% and I thought of the word practice, 00:26:08.070 --> 00:26:11.590 align:middle line:84% in the sense not of practicing the piano, but-- 00:26:11.590 --> 00:26:12.090 align:middle line:90% in a way. 00:26:12.090 --> 00:26:15.120 align:middle line:84% But I'm saying more like a Buddhist practice of meditation 00:26:15.120 --> 00:26:20.230 align:middle line:84% or activity to free your mind and move into a certain area. 00:26:20.230 --> 00:26:24.840 align:middle line:90% And I think you have to do that. 00:26:24.840 --> 00:26:28.080 align:middle line:84% Actually, Phil Whalen once said that in an interview about me. 00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:29.220 align:middle line:90% I was glad to see you. 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:30.960 align:middle line:90% He said, Coolidge writes a lot. 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:31.710 align:middle line:90% And you have to. 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:34.470 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:26:34.470 --> 00:26:35.070 align:middle line:90% That's great. 00:26:35.070 --> 00:26:35.850 align:middle line:90% So-- 00:26:35.850 --> 00:26:38.905 align:middle line:84% Well, I think that's actually a really good spot to end. 00:26:38.905 --> 00:26:40.780 align:middle line:84% Clark's going to be hanging around for a bit. 00:26:40.780 --> 00:26:42.697 align:middle line:84% So if you feel like coming and talking to him, 00:26:42.697 --> 00:26:44.447 align:middle line:84% we're all just going to be gathering here. 00:26:44.447 --> 00:26:45.510 align:middle line:90% So thank you very much. 00:26:45.510 --> 00:26:48.560 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:26:48.560 --> 00:26:55.000 align:middle line:90%