WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.100 align:middle line:84% I almost feel like applauding myself. 00:00:02.100 --> 00:00:04.818 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:00:04.818 --> 00:00:06.535 align:middle line:90% 00:00:06.535 --> 00:00:07.410 align:middle line:90% Actually, it's funny. 00:00:07.410 --> 00:00:11.550 align:middle line:84% You read that poem, which is from, 00:00:11.550 --> 00:00:16.260 align:middle line:90% I guess early '80s or something. 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:20.460 align:middle line:84% We were living in a house in the woods in Western Massachusetts. 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:21.810 align:middle line:90% And I could see-- 00:00:21.810 --> 00:00:23.700 align:middle line:84% I just could instantly see my desk 00:00:23.700 --> 00:00:25.410 align:middle line:90% and the window and the trees. 00:00:25.410 --> 00:00:30.770 align:middle line:84% And I was amazed at how much about the philosophy of poetry 00:00:30.770 --> 00:00:35.850 align:middle line:84% it was, how much about [INAUDIBLE] of poetics, 00:00:35.850 --> 00:00:37.950 align:middle line:90% if you will. 00:00:37.950 --> 00:00:40.020 align:middle line:84% I generally don't think of my work 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:44.850 align:middle line:84% as being that consistently talking about the subject. 00:00:44.850 --> 00:00:46.700 align:middle line:90% But obviously, I have. 00:00:46.700 --> 00:00:48.660 align:middle line:90% And it's kind of great to have. 00:00:48.660 --> 00:00:50.580 align:middle line:84% I always thought it would be great, that-- 00:00:50.580 --> 00:00:55.350 align:middle line:84% I think poets should read other people's poetry aloud-- 00:00:55.350 --> 00:00:58.110 align:middle line:84% I mean, obviously the great old writers, 00:00:58.110 --> 00:00:59.790 align:middle line:90% but also contemporaries. 00:00:59.790 --> 00:01:03.300 align:middle line:84% And somehow it never really happens that much. 00:01:03.300 --> 00:01:06.440 align:middle line:84% Bernadette Mayer and I used to talk about it. 00:01:06.440 --> 00:01:09.000 align:middle line:84% We'd be excited about something by Melville. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.610 align:middle line:90% Or we sort of pretended. 00:01:11.610 --> 00:01:15.233 align:middle line:84% She pretended she was Hawthorne, and I pretended I was Melville. 00:01:15.233 --> 00:01:17.775 align:middle line:84% Of course, we were living right in that area of the Berkshire 00:01:17.775 --> 00:01:22.020 align:middle line:84% Hills where they got together in the mid-1860s. 00:01:22.020 --> 00:01:24.300 align:middle line:84% But we'd sometimes read to each other. 00:01:24.300 --> 00:01:25.180 align:middle line:90% And then we'd say-- 00:01:25.180 --> 00:01:27.360 align:middle line:84% or other people that we were excited about. 00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:31.258 align:middle line:84% And we thought, why can't it be organized so people can-- 00:01:31.258 --> 00:01:32.550 align:middle line:90% I mean, it'd been a few things. 00:01:32.550 --> 00:01:35.190 align:middle line:84% Like, there was a great Gertrude Stein marathon 00:01:35.190 --> 00:01:39.390 align:middle line:84% once at St. Mark's in the Bowery in New York, 00:01:39.390 --> 00:01:41.730 align:middle line:90% a 24-hour reading of Stein. 00:01:41.730 --> 00:01:45.660 align:middle line:84% Not just one work, I think there's some gallery they do. 00:01:45.660 --> 00:01:48.360 align:middle line:84% They read the whole Making of Americans. 00:01:48.360 --> 00:01:51.180 align:middle line:84% But this was whatever anybody wanted to read. 00:01:51.180 --> 00:01:53.350 align:middle line:90% And it went on for a day. 00:01:53.350 --> 00:01:55.890 align:middle line:84% And I remember Allen Ginsberg coming and reading 00:01:55.890 --> 00:01:58.530 align:middle line:84% parts of the Making of Americans and using 00:01:58.530 --> 00:02:02.420 align:middle line:84% that repetition like a mantra, the way he would think 00:02:02.420 --> 00:02:04.750 align:middle line:90% of his repetitions. 00:02:04.750 --> 00:02:08.220 align:middle line:84% It was all fascinating to see how 00:02:08.220 --> 00:02:09.720 align:middle line:84% they would read the people that they 00:02:09.720 --> 00:02:13.491 align:middle line:90% loved and were influenced by. 00:02:13.491 --> 00:02:15.240 align:middle line:84% So what do you think about having 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:19.985 align:middle line:84% to read your own work, being forced by the crowd here today? 00:02:19.985 --> 00:02:22.150 align:middle line:84% Well, of course, I want to do that. 00:02:22.150 --> 00:02:26.940 align:middle line:84% But, I mean, I don't want to eliminate personal readings. 00:02:26.940 --> 00:02:28.890 align:middle line:90% But it just occurs to me. 00:02:28.890 --> 00:02:33.120 align:middle line:84% Listening to you read that poem of mine from so many years ago, 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:35.680 align:middle line:84% it makes me think about myself in a different way. 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.030 align:middle line:84% I didn't realize what I was doing then, 00:02:38.030 --> 00:02:40.230 align:middle line:84% which I maybe have forgotten, because so much has 00:02:40.230 --> 00:02:41.160 align:middle line:90% happened in between. 00:02:41.160 --> 00:02:46.530 align:middle line:84% And I think of my work as more disjunct than that usually. 00:02:46.530 --> 00:02:48.750 align:middle line:84% Although, there are some pretty weird corners 00:02:48.750 --> 00:02:50.695 align:middle line:90% and crevices and stuff. 00:02:50.695 --> 00:02:55.170 align:middle line:84% Lyn Hejinian, who's been a friend of mine for a while, 00:02:55.170 --> 00:02:58.770 align:middle line:84% said the other day-- she was reading the big book, the book 00:02:58.770 --> 00:02:59.730 align:middle line:90% beginning. 00:02:59.730 --> 00:03:04.260 align:middle line:84% And she said, you really are into philosophy. 00:03:04.260 --> 00:03:06.408 align:middle line:84% And she knows that I've always rejected that. 00:03:06.408 --> 00:03:08.700 align:middle line:84% I mean, so if somebody said that, I'd say, no, I'm not. 00:03:08.700 --> 00:03:11.610 align:middle line:84% And then I know poets who really get off 00:03:11.610 --> 00:03:15.270 align:middle line:84% on reading Adorno and Earl Aponte 00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:19.320 align:middle line:84% and people like Hegel and [INAUDIBLE]. 00:03:19.320 --> 00:03:22.260 align:middle line:90% And it generates work. 00:03:22.260 --> 00:03:24.840 align:middle line:84% I mean, I'm thinking of Michael Palmer. 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:28.110 align:middle line:84% He's somebody that writes very carefully and slowly 00:03:28.110 --> 00:03:31.290 align:middle line:84% and makes notebooks full of notations 00:03:31.290 --> 00:03:35.012 align:middle line:84% from what he's reading, Walter Benjamin, whatever. 00:03:35.012 --> 00:03:36.720 align:middle line:84% And I would always say, even though we're 00:03:36.720 --> 00:03:41.910 align:middle line:84% close friends in three years, that isn't my impulse. 00:03:41.910 --> 00:03:46.350 align:middle line:84% I get lost in that, what I would call, abstract language. 00:03:46.350 --> 00:03:48.690 align:middle line:84% I mean, I know I'm called an abstract poet. 00:03:48.690 --> 00:03:52.380 align:middle line:84% But to me, that's abstract, the sort 00:03:52.380 --> 00:03:56.430 align:middle line:84% of general term and conceptual language. 00:03:56.430 --> 00:03:59.280 align:middle line:84% That kind of disappears in my head. 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.260 align:middle line:90% I can't hold onto it. 00:04:01.260 --> 00:04:02.820 align:middle line:84% Not to focus too much on the poem 00:04:02.820 --> 00:04:06.690 align:middle line:84% that I just read, but you do use language like monad in that. 00:04:06.690 --> 00:04:11.610 align:middle line:84% So when you're reading language from whatever source-- 00:04:11.610 --> 00:04:14.490 align:middle line:84% and I know that you're often sort 00:04:14.490 --> 00:04:16.620 align:middle line:84% of repurposing or rethinking what 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:19.470 align:middle line:84% you're actually reading into the work that you're making. 00:04:19.470 --> 00:04:22.680 align:middle line:84% When you're reading other works, when you're reading other 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:24.990 align:middle line:84% things-- whether it's philosophy, geology, 00:04:24.990 --> 00:04:26.100 align:middle line:90% what have you-- 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:30.780 align:middle line:84% how do you go about focusing on what that extractive mechanism 00:04:30.780 --> 00:04:34.822 align:middle line:84% will be of something like taking monad out of Leibniz? 00:04:34.822 --> 00:04:39.900 align:middle line:84% That makes it sound much too concerted. 00:04:39.900 --> 00:04:44.400 align:middle line:84% I mean, not to trash what you're saying. 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:49.440 align:middle line:84% I think of writing poems as not that kind of process. 00:04:49.440 --> 00:04:52.710 align:middle line:84% I remember a friend of mine who was having trouble writing. 00:04:52.710 --> 00:04:59.370 align:middle line:84% He came to visit, and he brought a hundred pages of single lines 00:04:59.370 --> 00:05:01.050 align:middle line:84% that he had written down in a notebook. 00:05:01.050 --> 00:05:03.240 align:middle line:84% And he kind of threw them at me and said, 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:04.830 align:middle line:84% see if you can make a poem out that. 00:05:04.830 --> 00:05:07.195 align:middle line:90% And I said, man, that's yours. 00:05:07.195 --> 00:05:09.570 align:middle line:84% I mean, I can't-- but then it occurred to me to tell him, 00:05:09.570 --> 00:05:13.170 align:middle line:84% if I write things in a notebook, they usually don't get 00:05:13.170 --> 00:05:14.550 align:middle line:90% into poems. 00:05:14.550 --> 00:05:17.280 align:middle line:90% They stay in the notebook. 00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:19.360 align:middle line:84% And I know that might not be true-- 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:20.880 align:middle line:84% I know it's not true for everybody. 00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:25.410 align:middle line:84% But in my case, if I use a word like monad, I mean, 00:05:25.410 --> 00:05:30.360 align:middle line:84% that might have come to my mind weeks before or even earlier. 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:32.800 align:middle line:84% And something I'm doing generated 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.190 align:middle line:84% this spark and the little trails in the nervous system. 00:05:36.190 --> 00:05:37.960 align:middle line:90% It brings that work back. 00:05:37.960 --> 00:05:40.360 align:middle line:84% I mean, I'm fascinated with that whole process, which 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:43.780 align:middle line:84% is more than the process of saying, 00:05:43.780 --> 00:05:46.390 align:middle line:84% I read this thing about the word monad, 00:05:46.390 --> 00:05:49.180 align:middle line:90% so I want to use the word monad. 00:05:49.180 --> 00:05:51.770 align:middle line:84% I mean, even if it was to use it in a different way, 00:05:51.770 --> 00:05:53.950 align:middle line:84% I can't imagine myself doing that, 00:05:53.950 --> 00:05:55.210 align:middle line:90% going through that process. 00:05:55.210 --> 00:05:56.770 align:middle line:90% So it would have to come up-- 00:05:56.770 --> 00:05:59.420 align:middle line:84% it would have to survive my mind. 00:05:59.420 --> 00:05:59.920 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:04.870 align:middle line:84% survive my memory, at least, 00:06:04.870 --> 00:06:08.260 align:middle line:90% and come back into a pattern. 00:06:08.260 --> 00:06:10.600 align:middle line:84% Because poetry is very present tense to me. 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.300 align:middle line:84% It's that old phrase, in the moment. 00:06:13.300 --> 00:06:16.900 align:middle line:84% I mean, it really is, which I get I think, 00:06:16.900 --> 00:06:21.010 align:middle line:84% from years of playing improvised music. 00:06:21.010 --> 00:06:23.380 align:middle line:84% And now I'm made to realize everything 00:06:23.380 --> 00:06:27.100 align:middle line:84% is recorded and probably online in five minutes. 00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:31.240 align:middle line:90% But I always liked the phrase-- 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:34.300 align:middle line:84% the alto saxophonist Eric Dolphy once 00:06:34.300 --> 00:06:36.940 align:middle line:84% said, "music when it's played, it's gone." 00:06:36.940 --> 00:06:39.280 align:middle line:84% It goes into the air, and it's gone. 00:06:39.280 --> 00:06:41.420 align:middle line:84% And it sounds like a horrible despairing thing. 00:06:41.420 --> 00:06:44.620 align:middle line:84% But on the other hand, that is what it is. 00:06:44.620 --> 00:06:47.903 align:middle line:84% There were these wonderful moments when you were there. 00:06:47.903 --> 00:06:49.695 align:middle line:84% It's not so much that somebody else wasn't. 00:06:49.695 --> 00:06:52.585 align:middle line:90% 00:06:52.585 --> 00:06:56.050 align:middle line:84% So imagine you were there and somebody else wasn't. 00:06:56.050 --> 00:06:58.843 align:middle line:84% And even if that was recorded-- and this happened to me 00:06:58.843 --> 00:07:01.010 align:middle line:84% a number of times-- and then you listen to it later, 00:07:01.010 --> 00:07:02.750 align:middle line:90% it's not the same. 00:07:02.750 --> 00:07:05.237 align:middle line:84% In fact, it fascinates me why it's not the same. 00:07:05.237 --> 00:07:06.070 align:middle line:90% I don't really know. 00:07:06.070 --> 00:07:09.280 align:middle line:84% I mean, there can be sonic differences, obviously, 00:07:09.280 --> 00:07:11.980 align:middle line:84% certain frequencies being picked up and not others. 00:07:11.980 --> 00:07:15.027 align:middle line:84% But you can have that experience of going to a concert. 00:07:15.027 --> 00:07:17.110 align:middle line:84% You thought it was the greatest thing of all time. 00:07:17.110 --> 00:07:19.750 align:middle line:84% And then you hear the record, and somehow it didn't-- 00:07:19.750 --> 00:07:20.890 align:middle line:90% jeez, is that the one? 00:07:20.890 --> 00:07:25.030 align:middle line:84% It must be the wrong recording, or the opposite-- 00:07:25.030 --> 00:07:27.490 align:middle line:84% which just proves, I think, what I'm saying, 00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:31.350 align:middle line:84% that it's that momentary connection that you make. 00:07:31.350 --> 00:07:33.580 align:middle line:90% It's all of it. 00:07:33.580 --> 00:07:35.050 align:middle line:90% That's your chance at it. 00:07:35.050 --> 00:07:36.940 align:middle line:84% And then it goes into your brain, 00:07:36.940 --> 00:07:40.630 align:middle line:84% and whatever your brain does with it. 00:07:40.630 --> 00:07:43.110 align:middle line:84% And then you may be able to retrieve it later 00:07:43.110 --> 00:07:44.570 align:middle line:90% or you may not be able to. 00:07:44.570 --> 00:07:45.070 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:07:45.070 --> 00:07:46.630 align:middle line:84% It's that moment of improvisation 00:07:46.630 --> 00:07:51.040 align:middle line:84% where you've taken in all of this stuff, ambient noises, 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:51.800 align:middle line:90% words-- 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:52.300 align:middle line:90% Exactly. 00:07:52.300 --> 00:07:52.920 align:middle line:90% --the monad. 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:55.450 align:middle line:84% And then it gets processed through this moment 00:07:55.450 --> 00:07:57.770 align:middle line:84% of improvisation, which happens on the paper. 00:07:57.770 --> 00:07:59.590 align:middle line:84% And it's just that one moment where 00:07:59.590 --> 00:08:01.570 align:middle line:84% those things can come together, just 00:08:01.570 --> 00:08:03.560 align:middle line:90% that moment, only that moment. 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:06.430 align:middle line:84% So the question then is what do you 00:08:06.430 --> 00:08:09.370 align:middle line:84% do with the text in the sense of do you imagine 00:08:09.370 --> 00:08:13.180 align:middle line:84% the text as a recording of that improvisation in the same way 00:08:13.180 --> 00:08:17.192 align:middle line:84% that there's that recording of the concert that maybe wasn't 00:08:17.192 --> 00:08:18.400 align:middle line:90% as-- when you were recording? 00:08:18.400 --> 00:08:18.900 align:middle line:90% In a way. 00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:23.740 align:middle line:84% Except obviously a book does not have that sign. 00:08:23.740 --> 00:08:27.860 align:middle line:84% I think probably that would be good for poetry books 00:08:27.860 --> 00:08:31.370 align:middle line:84% to have a recording with them in the book. 00:08:31.370 --> 00:08:33.818 align:middle line:90% And if the book has-- 00:08:33.818 --> 00:08:35.919 align:middle line:84% I mean, there are poets who don't present you 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:40.120 align:middle line:84% with anything new when you hear them read, and some do. 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.090 align:middle line:84% And I'm sort of amazed to realize some that don't. 00:08:43.090 --> 00:08:45.730 align:middle line:84% I mean, for instance, John Ashbery-- 00:08:45.730 --> 00:08:48.400 align:middle line:84% some of you have probably heard him read. 00:08:48.400 --> 00:08:50.650 align:middle line:90% He's a very competent reader. 00:08:50.650 --> 00:08:53.110 align:middle line:84% But to me, he doesn't give anything extra. 00:08:53.110 --> 00:08:56.470 align:middle line:84% He kind of reads in a monotone, perfectly clear-- 00:08:56.470 --> 00:08:58.570 align:middle line:90% those lines. 00:08:58.570 --> 00:08:59.590 align:middle line:90% I love his work. 00:08:59.590 --> 00:09:03.370 align:middle line:84% But I've never felt that I got an extra cue 00:09:03.370 --> 00:09:08.080 align:middle line:84% from hearing the sonic side, while some other people you 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:08.860 align:middle line:90% totally do. 00:09:08.860 --> 00:09:12.970 align:middle line:84% Jack Kerouac, I mean, he was my original inspiration 00:09:12.970 --> 00:09:15.130 align:middle line:90% to be a writer at all. 00:09:15.130 --> 00:09:17.800 align:middle line:84% Somebody handed me On the Road in college. 00:09:17.800 --> 00:09:23.890 align:middle line:84% In 1957 it was on the bestseller list for a few months. 00:09:23.890 --> 00:09:26.943 align:middle line:84% And this guy had a book club that his parents gave him. 00:09:26.943 --> 00:09:29.110 align:middle line:84% It was something he would just automatically hand me 00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:31.690 align:middle line:90% all the books [INAUDIBLE]. 00:09:31.690 --> 00:09:33.592 align:middle line:84% I can't even imagine that I was about to-- 00:09:33.592 --> 00:09:34.800 align:middle line:90% I was flunking out of school. 00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:37.400 align:middle line:90% I mean, I was about to leave. 00:09:37.400 --> 00:09:40.600 align:middle line:84% Then suddenly I'm presented with this great book about leaving, 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:42.005 align:middle line:90% about going. 00:09:42.005 --> 00:09:43.630 align:middle line:84% And I had never been to the West Coast. 00:09:43.630 --> 00:09:45.460 align:middle line:90% And this was in-- 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:46.230 align:middle line:90% I was at Brown. 00:09:46.230 --> 00:09:47.063 align:middle line:90% I was in Providence. 00:09:47.063 --> 00:09:49.150 align:middle line:90% I grew up in Providence. 00:09:49.150 --> 00:09:50.425 align:middle line:90% So I did that. 00:09:50.425 --> 00:09:53.080 align:middle line:84% I hitched and got rides to the West Coast. 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:55.970 align:middle line:90% And that was the beginning. 00:09:55.970 --> 00:09:58.660 align:middle line:84% But the thing is, Kerouac, I saw instantly 00:09:58.660 --> 00:10:01.180 align:middle line:90% that when he started his line-- 00:10:01.180 --> 00:10:04.120 align:middle line:84% and I think of his work as a long line. 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:05.980 align:middle line:84% He didn't know what words were coming. 00:10:05.980 --> 00:10:07.720 align:middle line:84% He didn't know where he was going. 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:09.730 align:middle line:90% And that was what got him going. 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:13.150 align:middle line:84% And I thought, I can do that because I play jazz. 00:10:13.150 --> 00:10:16.660 align:middle line:84% And I know that that's the state of mind you're in. 00:10:16.660 --> 00:10:18.770 align:middle line:84% And why couldn't it be that way with writing? 00:10:18.770 --> 00:10:22.840 align:middle line:84% Because my education had always said, no, no. 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:25.780 align:middle line:84% You have some image of somebody like Hemingway standing up 00:10:25.780 --> 00:10:27.440 align:middle line:84% sharpening his pencil in the morning, 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.170 align:middle line:84% and taking two hours about an adjective, 00:10:30.170 --> 00:10:33.540 align:middle line:84% or day-- writing one sentence a day; 00:10:33.540 --> 00:10:36.160 align:middle line:84% being totally defeated by that idea. 00:10:36.160 --> 00:10:38.307 align:middle line:84% I'm thinking, oh, I don't want to do that. 00:10:38.307 --> 00:10:38.890 align:middle line:90% It's too hard. 00:10:38.890 --> 00:10:40.132 align:middle line:90% That's like school. 00:10:40.132 --> 00:10:42.070 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:10:42.070 --> 00:10:44.258 align:middle line:84% I can't quite believe that Hemingway really 00:10:44.258 --> 00:10:45.050 align:middle line:90% did write that way. 00:10:45.050 --> 00:10:49.240 align:middle line:84% And I think that doesn't sound like writing to me. 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.250 align:middle line:84% Sounds like a new business proposal. 00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:52.500 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:55.750 align:middle line:84% Making you write a resume or something. 00:10:55.750 --> 00:10:58.300 align:middle line:84% But at the same time you and I have 00:10:58.300 --> 00:11:03.070 align:middle line:84% talked about the precision between words and something 00:11:03.070 --> 00:11:04.570 align:middle line:84% like polaroid, where you're thinking 00:11:04.570 --> 00:11:06.550 align:middle line:90% about the polarities of words-- 00:11:06.550 --> 00:11:09.220 align:middle line:84% so putting one word next to another word 00:11:09.220 --> 00:11:13.750 align:middle line:84% and concentrating very closely on how those words affect 00:11:13.750 --> 00:11:16.390 align:middle line:84% each other and how they kind of create polar opposites, 00:11:16.390 --> 00:11:18.100 align:middle line:90% as you've described to me. 00:11:18.100 --> 00:11:22.300 align:middle line:84% So how does that sort of intense, really intense focus 00:11:22.300 --> 00:11:27.280 align:middle line:84% on that micro sound of each word connect with the blowing 00:11:27.280 --> 00:11:30.160 align:middle line:90% as Jack Kerouac sort of-- 00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:32.080 align:middle line:84% I mean, that book and The Maintains, 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.090 align:middle line:84% which were written back to back-- 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:37.030 align:middle line:84% but Maintains first-- were really projects. 00:11:37.030 --> 00:11:39.310 align:middle line:84% I mean, occasionally, I've had a project. 00:11:39.310 --> 00:11:42.790 align:middle line:84% The beginning is a project where it's 00:11:42.790 --> 00:11:45.220 align:middle line:84% sort of a general structure of the whole thing. 00:11:45.220 --> 00:11:47.230 align:middle line:84% The Maintains I wanted to use the dictionary. 00:11:47.230 --> 00:11:50.170 align:middle line:84% I wanted to just look at dictionary words 00:11:50.170 --> 00:11:52.150 align:middle line:90% and use that as my source. 00:11:52.150 --> 00:11:53.740 align:middle line:90% And I did that for a year. 00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:55.510 align:middle line:84% Then I discovered that there was a kind 00:11:55.510 --> 00:11:57.250 align:middle line:90% of syntax in the dictionary. 00:11:57.250 --> 00:11:59.824 align:middle line:90% 00:11:59.824 --> 00:12:02.500 align:middle line:90% The definitions have a syntax. 00:12:02.500 --> 00:12:06.160 align:middle line:84% I thought it was just a list of words. 00:12:06.160 --> 00:12:07.760 align:middle line:84% In fact, there's a wonderful line 00:12:07.760 --> 00:12:11.570 align:middle line:90% by the comic Steven Wright-- 00:12:11.570 --> 00:12:13.580 align:middle line:90% you probably know him-- 00:12:13.580 --> 00:12:16.365 align:middle line:84% where he said, "when I bought a dictionary first 00:12:16.365 --> 00:12:17.990 align:middle line:84% and looked at it, I thought it was just 00:12:17.990 --> 00:12:19.370 align:middle line:90% a poem about everything." 00:12:19.370 --> 00:12:20.900 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:12:20.900 --> 00:12:22.130 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:12:22.130 --> 00:12:24.230 align:middle line:84% That's what I thought The Maintains was. 00:12:24.230 --> 00:12:27.370 align:middle line:84% So I wanted to create something that would literally be that. 00:12:27.370 --> 00:12:29.120 align:middle line:84% So then after I did that, I thought, well, 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:33.440 align:middle line:84% now that book ended up being heavy in nouns and adjectives 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:34.250 align:middle line:90% and verbs. 00:12:34.250 --> 00:12:36.020 align:middle line:84% And I thought, I'll take all that out, 00:12:36.020 --> 00:12:38.210 align:middle line:84% and I'll just use the connective tissue-- 00:12:38.210 --> 00:12:41.420 align:middle line:84% the prepositions and articles and pronouns. 00:12:41.420 --> 00:12:43.620 align:middle line:90% And I started that way. 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:46.130 align:middle line:84% But then I realized it was beginning 00:12:46.130 --> 00:12:49.400 align:middle line:90% to accumulate other words. 00:12:49.400 --> 00:12:51.860 align:middle line:84% It almost had a kind of engine going 00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:56.120 align:middle line:84% after a while that wouldn't just stay with that vocabulary. 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:57.650 align:middle line:90% It's sort of in three sections. 00:12:57.650 --> 00:13:00.018 align:middle line:84% In the last section, I've allowed a certain amount 00:13:00.018 --> 00:13:00.810 align:middle line:90% of that to come in. 00:13:00.810 --> 00:13:02.318 align:middle line:90% It got very dense. 00:13:02.318 --> 00:13:04.610 align:middle line:84% So in a way, it was kind of working its way back to it. 00:13:04.610 --> 00:13:09.860 align:middle line:84% But the actual writing of those pages was really spontaneous. 00:13:09.860 --> 00:13:15.050 align:middle line:84% The last section, as I remember, I started with a line 00:13:15.050 --> 00:13:16.490 align:middle line:90% that I had written before. 00:13:16.490 --> 00:13:19.040 align:middle line:84% And then I did what I thought I was variations 00:13:19.040 --> 00:13:21.050 align:middle line:90% on that line for a page. 00:13:21.050 --> 00:13:23.960 align:middle line:84% The page was a unit, and then another line, 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:30.590 align:middle line:84% and then variations on that for 30, 40 pages whatever. 00:13:30.590 --> 00:13:33.050 align:middle line:84% So even within something you might 00:13:33.050 --> 00:13:37.520 align:middle line:84% think of as encompassing the real structure and preparation 00:13:37.520 --> 00:13:41.420 align:middle line:84% that I had also allowed myself the chance to improvise. 00:13:41.420 --> 00:13:44.220 align:middle line:84% And it's somebody blowing on the changes of body and soul 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:47.010 align:middle line:84% in something, great songs that exist. 00:13:47.010 --> 00:13:48.890 align:middle line:90% And you didn't write them. 00:13:48.890 --> 00:13:51.480 align:middle line:90% But you're making variations. 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.930 align:middle line:84% So you have a kind of formal system 00:13:53.930 --> 00:13:56.660 align:middle line:84% that allows for variation, allows for improvisation 00:13:56.660 --> 00:13:59.450 align:middle line:84% within that movement or structure over time. 00:13:59.450 --> 00:14:01.460 align:middle line:84% Sort of very similar to John Cage, 00:14:01.460 --> 00:14:04.310 align:middle line:84% like structured improvisation in that sense. 00:14:04.310 --> 00:14:07.520 align:middle line:84% Yeah, except he wants it to be totally not 00:14:07.520 --> 00:14:14.810 align:middle line:90% his idea, which is very brave. 00:14:14.810 --> 00:14:16.670 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's admirable in itself. 00:14:16.670 --> 00:14:20.660 align:middle line:84% But I can't get myself out of it that much. 00:14:20.660 --> 00:14:22.490 align:middle line:90% I'm not sure I want to. 00:14:22.490 --> 00:14:25.430 align:middle line:84% I discovered that my mind is more interesting 00:14:25.430 --> 00:14:26.747 align:middle line:90% than I thought it was. 00:14:26.747 --> 00:14:27.940 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:14:27.940 --> 00:14:30.170 align:middle line:84% I don't mean brilliant intellectually. 00:14:30.170 --> 00:14:32.540 align:middle line:90% But there's more to it. 00:14:32.540 --> 00:14:36.470 align:middle line:84% It's like a territory that I never get tired of exploring, 00:14:36.470 --> 00:14:38.660 align:middle line:90% I think, so far. 00:14:38.660 --> 00:14:39.890 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:14:39.890 --> 00:14:42.980 align:middle line:90% But it's been a few years. 00:14:42.980 --> 00:14:46.010 align:middle line:84% Could you tell us about thinking about the project? 00:14:46.010 --> 00:14:47.660 align:middle line:84% Can you tell us about this project 00:14:47.660 --> 00:14:51.980 align:middle line:84% and give everyone a better sense of its history and genesis? 00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:54.890 align:middle line:90% It has a structure the piece. 00:14:54.890 --> 00:14:59.290 align:middle line:84% And essentially it's two kinds of sections. 00:14:59.290 --> 00:15:02.360 align:middle line:84% One is the subject matter section, 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.360 align:middle line:84% things that interest me-- like minerals and music 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.010 align:middle line:90% and movies, things like that. 00:15:07.010 --> 00:15:09.020 align:middle line:84% Then I've done a kind of other section 00:15:09.020 --> 00:15:14.360 align:middle line:84% that repeats, which is the author's [INAUDIBLE] and so on. 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.760 align:middle line:84% And there are sections then in between that 00:15:16.760 --> 00:15:20.120 align:middle line:84% combine the writing of those two sections, 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.220 align:middle line:84% and then another section that keeps taking up 00:15:22.220 --> 00:15:25.910 align:middle line:84% the slack of all three, so that finally it 00:15:25.910 --> 00:15:29.540 align:middle line:84% just keeps containing and varying 00:15:29.540 --> 00:15:30.920 align:middle line:90% everything that's going before. 00:15:30.920 --> 00:15:32.280 align:middle line:90% That was the idea. 00:15:32.280 --> 00:15:35.960 align:middle line:84% So I did that for, I think, 10 years. 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.960 align:middle line:84% And I finally-- it would've gone on forever. 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.390 align:middle line:84% I mean, it was an endless series in a way. 00:15:42.390 --> 00:15:44.480 align:middle line:90% And so I just stopped it. 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.195 align:middle line:84% I put a section in, which is actually 00:15:47.195 --> 00:15:50.060 align:middle line:84% a pretty autobiographical section, 00:15:50.060 --> 00:15:51.920 align:middle line:90% 'cause I slammed the door on it. 00:15:51.920 --> 00:15:52.910 align:middle line:90% And that was the book. 00:15:52.910 --> 00:15:55.327 align:middle line:84% Because I couldn't-- people were talking about it as being 00:15:55.327 --> 00:15:56.610 align:middle line:90% 1,000-page work. 00:15:56.610 --> 00:15:59.630 align:middle line:84% We're waiting for Coolidge to write, to finish 00:15:59.630 --> 00:16:01.950 align:middle line:90% his side of the paperwork. 00:16:01.950 --> 00:16:04.430 align:middle line:90% I got bored. 00:16:04.430 --> 00:16:06.320 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:09.380 align:middle line:84% Actually, one of the people saying that, hoping for that 00:16:09.380 --> 00:16:13.190 align:middle line:84% was Ron Silliman, who wrote a 1,000 page book: The Alphabet. 00:16:13.190 --> 00:16:17.900 align:middle line:84% It's been published So obviously he 00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:19.670 align:middle line:90% did what he wanted to happen. 00:16:19.670 --> 00:16:22.130 align:middle line:90% It wasn't me. 00:16:22.130 --> 00:16:24.200 align:middle line:84% Although, I did give a reading of that 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:26.360 align:middle line:84% in San Francisco during the hot 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:29.600 align:middle line:84% Language School years, where I read every night for a week 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.510 align:middle line:84% for two hours, two sets with a break. 00:16:32.510 --> 00:16:34.890 align:middle line:84% And I got about halfway through what 00:16:34.890 --> 00:16:37.250 align:middle line:90% I had written at that point. 00:16:37.250 --> 00:16:39.620 align:middle line:84% And that was kind of misconceived. 00:16:39.620 --> 00:16:42.064 align:middle line:84% And they thought it was about the length. 00:16:42.064 --> 00:16:43.845 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] duration. 00:16:43.845 --> 00:16:46.220 align:middle line:84% Now I keep hearing this word duration that has come back, 00:16:46.220 --> 00:16:49.340 align:middle line:90% like the durational poetry. 00:16:49.340 --> 00:16:55.670 align:middle line:84% I gave a reading earlier this year in Albany, New York 00:16:55.670 --> 00:16:57.860 align:middle line:84% with a very wonderful bass player 00:16:57.860 --> 00:17:01.730 align:middle line:84% named Michael Bisio, who plays with Michael Shipp's Trio. 00:17:01.730 --> 00:17:03.140 align:middle line:90% And I didn't know him. 00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:06.560 align:middle line:84% And we were brought together in this gallery. 00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:08.300 align:middle line:90% And he started playing. 00:17:08.300 --> 00:17:12.180 align:middle line:84% And he's one of these volcanically monstrous, strong 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:14.520 align:middle line:90% players. 00:17:14.520 --> 00:17:17.549 align:middle line:84% Whenever I've led with musicians where 00:17:17.549 --> 00:17:20.970 align:middle line:84% we haven't worked together, the musician usually 00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:23.099 align:middle line:90% starts tentatively treading. 00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:27.636 align:middle line:84% This guy just came out like fucking Moby Dick. 00:17:27.636 --> 00:17:30.750 align:middle line:90% Well, all right. 00:17:30.750 --> 00:17:32.570 align:middle line:90% Now we'll see [INAUDIBLE]. 00:17:32.570 --> 00:17:34.320 align:middle line:84% And we went on for an hour and a half. 00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:35.760 align:middle line:90% So it was-- 00:17:35.760 --> 00:17:39.330 align:middle line:84% I hear that's available online somewhere. 00:17:39.330 --> 00:17:42.900 align:middle line:84% And I think I'm gonna do more with him and Shipp 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:44.760 align:middle line:90% early next year. 00:17:44.760 --> 00:17:47.220 align:middle line:84% Man, I love collaborating with musicians, particularly 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:51.220 align:middle line:84% the take-no-prisoners type, as long I can be heard. 00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:52.980 align:middle line:84% As long as the sound mix is good. 00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:54.658 align:middle line:84% They've had some problems with that. 00:17:54.658 --> 00:17:55.950 align:middle line:90% And you're a musician yourself. 00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:59.040 align:middle line:84% Could you talk more about your training as a musician? 00:17:59.040 --> 00:18:03.540 align:middle line:84% Yeah, my father was a classical violinist. 00:18:03.540 --> 00:18:07.990 align:middle line:84% And he had played with the Cincinnati under Reiner. 00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:09.930 align:middle line:84% He played the New York Philharmonic 00:18:09.930 --> 00:18:11.340 align:middle line:90% and studied in Vienna. 00:18:11.340 --> 00:18:13.590 align:middle line:84% And then he came back and started the Music Department 00:18:13.590 --> 00:18:14.940 align:middle line:90% at Brown University. 00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:16.390 align:middle line:90% So I was a faculty brat. 00:18:16.390 --> 00:18:20.220 align:middle line:84% And I grew up with string quartets in the living room, 00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:22.980 align:middle line:84% instantly rejected all that at the time. 00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.340 align:middle line:90% And I had took up jazz. 00:18:25.340 --> 00:18:28.780 align:middle line:84% I mean, I was attracted to jazz right away. 00:18:28.780 --> 00:18:34.410 align:middle line:84% And my father made me take piano lessons, like everybody does. 00:18:34.410 --> 00:18:36.390 align:middle line:84% Now I totally regret having given it up 00:18:36.390 --> 00:18:39.900 align:middle line:84% because that's my favorite instrument. 00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:41.400 align:middle line:84% But all I really learned-- because I 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:42.990 align:middle line:90% had the wrong kind of teacher. 00:18:42.990 --> 00:18:43.808 align:middle line:90% I have good ears. 00:18:43.808 --> 00:18:45.600 align:middle line:84% And I should've been taught to play by ear. 00:18:45.600 --> 00:18:48.690 align:middle line:84% But I was just taught training exercises. 00:18:48.690 --> 00:18:51.510 align:middle line:84% And the teacher would say, OK, that's perfect. 00:18:51.510 --> 00:18:52.920 align:middle line:90% Now, turn the page. 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:54.180 align:middle line:90% I mean, that's not music. 00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:57.630 align:middle line:84% So all I really learned was how to read music. 00:18:57.630 --> 00:18:58.440 align:middle line:90% But I quit that. 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:01.290 align:middle line:84% And my father said, OK, if you gotta study drums, 00:19:01.290 --> 00:19:02.730 align:middle line:90% you gotta go and take lessons. 00:19:02.730 --> 00:19:04.262 align:middle line:90% So I took lessons with a guy. 00:19:04.262 --> 00:19:05.595 align:middle line:90% He was actually a great teacher. 00:19:05.595 --> 00:19:08.970 align:middle line:84% He was the timpanist with the local orchestra. 00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:11.700 align:middle line:84% And I had lessons with him for four or five years, 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:14.730 align:middle line:84% the old rudimental style of playing all different length 00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:17.460 align:middle line:84% rolls and paradiddles and ratamacues and all 00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:21.090 align:middle line:84% those wonderful names, playing with lead sticks on a rubber 00:19:21.090 --> 00:19:24.930 align:middle line:84% pad, really working out, building up those muscles. 00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:27.330 align:middle line:84% And I decided to play with bands. 00:19:27.330 --> 00:19:30.470 align:middle line:84% Me and [INAUDIBLE], my oldest friend, 00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:32.670 align:middle line:84% we met at the seventh grade band. 00:19:32.670 --> 00:19:35.010 align:middle line:90% He played trombone. 00:19:35.010 --> 00:19:36.180 align:middle line:90% We started bands. 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:37.820 align:middle line:84% We had a jazz band in high school. 00:19:37.820 --> 00:19:41.670 align:middle line:84% We worked dance jobs and went into Brown. 00:19:41.670 --> 00:19:43.230 align:middle line:90% They had a Dixieland band. 00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:47.200 align:middle line:84% And this is how far back that is, 1956. 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:52.860 align:middle line:84% So they had Dixieland bands in all the Ivy League schools 00:19:52.860 --> 00:19:55.110 align:middle line:84% that went all the way back to the '20s, like when 00:19:55.110 --> 00:19:56.460 align:middle line:90% my father went to school. 00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:00.390 align:middle line:84% And the next year, they went out because the rock and roll 00:20:00.390 --> 00:20:01.890 align:middle line:90% generation came in. 00:20:01.890 --> 00:20:03.400 align:middle line:84% And they didn't know from Dixieland. 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.620 align:middle line:90% And that was the end of that. 00:20:05.620 --> 00:20:10.050 align:middle line:84% So by the time Alvin and I got to be in the Dixieland band, 00:20:10.050 --> 00:20:12.660 align:middle line:90% we were into modern bands-- 00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:14.940 align:middle line:90% Stan Getz and things like that. 00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:19.270 align:middle line:84% And we got into an aesthetic argument. 00:20:19.270 --> 00:20:20.830 align:middle line:90% The leader was a trumpet player. 00:20:20.830 --> 00:20:22.440 align:middle line:84% He was a terrible trumpet player. 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.920 align:middle line:84% He would always blow his lip out after the first set. 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.590 align:middle line:84% Dixieland is nowhere without a strong trumpet lead. 00:20:28.590 --> 00:20:31.560 align:middle line:84% So I argued my way out of what turned out 00:20:31.560 --> 00:20:34.620 align:middle line:84% to be a job on a boat going to Europe the next summer. 00:20:34.620 --> 00:20:35.567 align:middle line:90% But Alvin went. 00:20:35.567 --> 00:20:36.900 align:middle line:90% And that's how he got to Europe. 00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:39.695 align:middle line:84% And he's been there ever since really. 00:20:39.695 --> 00:20:40.445 align:middle line:90% He's an expatriate. 00:20:40.445 --> 00:20:44.070 align:middle line:84% He lives in Rome and has a big career there, but not so 00:20:44.070 --> 00:20:44.920 align:middle line:90% well known here. 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:47.580 align:middle line:84% But anyway, so I played all kinds of jobs, 00:20:47.580 --> 00:20:50.610 align:middle line:84% I mean every kind of dance and marching bands 00:20:50.610 --> 00:20:55.874 align:middle line:84% and Polish weddings and bar mitzvah, 00:20:55.874 --> 00:21:02.100 align:middle line:84% and show and pit bands, and orchestral percussion. 00:21:02.100 --> 00:21:04.332 align:middle line:84% In fact, I supported myself pretty much 00:21:04.332 --> 00:21:05.790 align:middle line:84% for a number of years in Providence 00:21:05.790 --> 00:21:10.530 align:middle line:84% as a kind of A-list guy that got called for whatever job, 00:21:10.530 --> 00:21:12.660 align:middle line:90% mainly because I could read. 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:14.160 align:middle line:90% But my love was jazz. 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.090 align:middle line:84% And jazz was not something you were usually hired to do. 00:21:18.090 --> 00:21:20.700 align:middle line:84% I mean, even though in some strange way 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:23.310 align:middle line:84% it was more popular, at least in college. 00:21:23.310 --> 00:21:25.920 align:middle line:84% I remember I really, really loved 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.370 align:middle line:84% the early Dave Brubeck Quartet, the stuff 00:21:29.370 --> 00:21:31.710 align:middle line:90% before Joe Morello joined. 00:21:31.710 --> 00:21:34.610 align:middle line:84% Those long improvisations are standards 00:21:34.610 --> 00:21:37.410 align:middle line:90% that are so miraculous. 00:21:37.410 --> 00:21:42.000 align:middle line:84% And those records were popular in college in the Ivy League. 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.420 align:middle line:84% I mean, it was kind of like make out music. 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:47.890 align:middle line:90% Desmond's alto was really silky. 00:21:47.890 --> 00:21:49.950 align:middle line:90% And they used it as background. 00:21:49.950 --> 00:21:54.330 align:middle line:84% But to me it couldn't possibly be background. 00:21:54.330 --> 00:21:56.926 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] power make out music? 00:21:56.926 --> 00:21:58.330 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:21:58.330 --> 00:22:01.500 align:middle line:90% I don't think so. 00:22:01.500 --> 00:22:03.540 align:middle line:84% We never even became a dance band 00:22:03.540 --> 00:22:08.010 align:middle line:84% in the sense of the ballroom bands in those days. 00:22:08.010 --> 00:22:11.080 align:middle line:84% We played the Avalon and the Fillmore. 00:22:11.080 --> 00:22:14.500 align:middle line:84% It was probably dope smoking music. 00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:17.140 align:middle line:84% The only thing about that was that there was-- 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:20.050 align:middle line:84% if you made a record in those days in San Francisco, 00:22:20.050 --> 00:22:24.280 align:middle line:84% there had to be one long psychedelic track. 00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:29.650 align:middle line:84% So ours was called Endless Tunnel. 00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:31.420 align:middle line:90% David made it up. 00:22:31.420 --> 00:22:33.490 align:middle line:90% "Riding that tunnel. 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:36.010 align:middle line:84% There are monsters outside and it's getting darker." 00:22:36.010 --> 00:22:39.370 align:middle line:84% And I'm trying to fight my way into the engineer's room. 00:22:39.370 --> 00:22:41.800 align:middle line:84% He finally dies in the last chorus. 00:22:41.800 --> 00:22:43.630 align:middle line:90% Where are we going? 00:22:43.630 --> 00:22:45.430 align:middle line:84% I just tell myself, I don't know. 00:22:45.430 --> 00:22:48.550 align:middle line:90% I'm just following the tracks. 00:22:48.550 --> 00:22:52.270 align:middle line:84% And that track, there was a station in New York City-- 00:22:52.270 --> 00:22:55.750 align:middle line:84% this is when FM rock had just started, 00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:57.550 align:middle line:84% so they could play longer tracks. 00:22:57.550 --> 00:22:59.200 align:middle line:90% And there was one that-- 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:01.060 align:middle line:84% to this day, I run into people that heard 00:23:01.060 --> 00:23:02.800 align:middle line:90% that thing in New York City. 00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:04.090 align:middle line:90% And it was always that track. 00:23:04.090 --> 00:23:07.110 align:middle line:84% And there was never played in San Francisco. 00:23:07.110 --> 00:23:08.168 align:middle line:90% It was just inexplicable. 00:23:08.168 --> 00:23:08.710 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:23:08.710 --> 00:23:11.710 align:middle line:84% Some jock who really loved it and played it enough, I guess. 00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:14.500 align:middle line:90% So people got it. 00:23:14.500 --> 00:23:16.450 align:middle line:84% So anyway, I've always played drums. 00:23:16.450 --> 00:23:20.140 align:middle line:84% I mean, I've had periods where after the Serpent Power, 00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:25.300 align:middle line:84% I felt kind of despondent about the possibility. 00:23:25.300 --> 00:23:31.570 align:middle line:84% Because the Serpent Power became a free improvising band 00:23:31.570 --> 00:23:32.770 align:middle line:90% after the record. 00:23:32.770 --> 00:23:34.390 align:middle line:90% Everybody in that band quit. 00:23:34.390 --> 00:23:38.290 align:middle line:84% We played the Fillmore on night with Janis and Country 00:23:38.290 --> 00:23:40.020 align:middle line:90% Joe and those guys. 00:23:40.020 --> 00:23:42.700 align:middle line:84% And everybody quit except me and David, 00:23:42.700 --> 00:23:44.470 align:middle line:84% including his wife Tina, who hated 00:23:44.470 --> 00:23:46.840 align:middle line:90% the whole psychedelic thing. 00:23:46.840 --> 00:23:49.640 align:middle line:84% It turned out she wanted to be a jazz singer in a club, 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:53.100 align:middle line:84% like June Christy, a cool singer in a trio. 00:23:53.100 --> 00:23:56.305 align:middle line:84% And she was up there with light shows and strobes. 00:23:56.305 --> 00:23:59.830 align:middle line:90% 00:23:59.830 --> 00:24:02.470 align:middle line:84% So David and I got a whole new band together. 00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:04.630 align:middle line:90% And it was all for improvising. 00:24:04.630 --> 00:24:06.370 align:middle line:84% We did these songs called symphonies 00:24:06.370 --> 00:24:09.310 align:middle line:84% where someone would start, and then someone would play, 00:24:09.310 --> 00:24:10.450 align:middle line:90% do a duo with them. 00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:12.040 align:middle line:84% And then the whole band would come in 00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:15.190 align:middle line:84% until we had finished everybody doing that cycle. 00:24:15.190 --> 00:24:16.780 align:middle line:90% It would often take an hour. 00:24:16.780 --> 00:24:18.040 align:middle line:90% And we had a certain audience. 00:24:18.040 --> 00:24:21.172 align:middle line:84% And we played [INAUDIBLE] in North Beach 00:24:21.172 --> 00:24:22.960 align:middle line:90% for a number of months. 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.320 align:middle line:84% The record company wouldn't record it. 00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:29.140 align:middle line:84% David had a two-record contract with Vanguard. 00:24:29.140 --> 00:24:33.190 align:middle line:84% And a producer came in and said, no, we can't sell this. 00:24:33.190 --> 00:24:35.470 align:middle line:84% So as a result, we have no record 00:24:35.470 --> 00:24:39.260 align:middle line:84% really of the band, just great memories 00:24:39.260 --> 00:24:41.440 align:middle line:90% and some wonderful moments. 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:43.495 align:middle line:84% Everybody was playing beyond what 00:24:43.495 --> 00:24:44.620 align:middle line:90% they thought they could do. 00:24:44.620 --> 00:24:46.080 align:middle line:90% That was the point. 00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:50.200 align:middle line:84% So one last question before I open it up to everyone else 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:53.350 align:middle line:90% here and step off myself. 00:24:53.350 --> 00:24:58.660 align:middle line:84% My question would be, so how do you see your improvisatory work 00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:01.780 align:middle line:84% as a poet in relationship to that improvisatory work 00:25:01.780 --> 00:25:02.690 align:middle line:90% as a jazz drummer? 00:25:02.690 --> 00:25:06.430 align:middle line:84% I know it's quite a large question. 00:25:06.430 --> 00:25:08.860 align:middle line:84% But what do you see about the connection 00:25:08.860 --> 00:25:10.630 align:middle line:84% between being a drummer and person 00:25:10.630 --> 00:25:13.310 align:middle line:84% interested in the sounds, these noisy sounds of percussion, 00:25:13.310 --> 00:25:16.480 align:middle line:84% and organizing time, rhythm in relationship 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.970 align:middle line:90% to language sounds? 00:25:18.970 --> 00:25:21.040 align:middle line:90% Well, the basic thing is rhythm. 00:25:21.040 --> 00:25:24.670 align:middle line:84% I mean, I have a jazz rhythm going in my mind 00:25:24.670 --> 00:25:31.060 align:middle line:84% most of the time, which was a 4/4 bebop kind of wind. 00:25:31.060 --> 00:25:35.380 align:middle line:84% And I could hear that in back of Kerouac. 00:25:35.380 --> 00:25:39.580 align:middle line:84% The minute I read his lines, I heard that-- 00:25:39.580 --> 00:25:40.930 align:middle line:90% and it's true. 00:25:40.930 --> 00:25:42.280 align:middle line:90% He did hear that music. 00:25:42.280 --> 00:25:45.820 align:middle line:84% And it was a basis for [INAUDIBLE].. 00:25:45.820 --> 00:25:49.688 align:middle line:84% In fact, once you're aware of that, you can read his-- 00:25:49.688 --> 00:25:50.980 align:middle line:90% I've done it a number of times. 00:25:50.980 --> 00:25:55.660 align:middle line:84% You can read Kerouac on top of a jazz band playing that rhythm, 00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:57.002 align:middle line:90% and it works perfectly. 00:25:57.002 --> 00:25:59.890 align:middle line:90% The phrases all fall in great. 00:25:59.890 --> 00:26:02.830 align:middle line:84% It's like a great improvised solo. 00:26:02.830 --> 00:26:04.890 align:middle line:84% I mean, I don't claim to be able to do that. 00:26:04.890 --> 00:26:08.790 align:middle line:84% But I think of that, and I operate that way. 00:26:08.790 --> 00:26:12.148 align:middle line:90% And so in a way, it's all-- 00:26:12.148 --> 00:26:12.940 align:middle line:90% what would you say? 00:26:12.940 --> 00:26:15.910 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's something being played 00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:20.440 align:middle line:84% on top of an invisible rhythm, which I can hear, 00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:22.360 align:middle line:90% and maybe you can hear. 00:26:22.360 --> 00:26:23.200 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.670 align:middle line:84% I mean, trying one of the records 00:26:24.670 --> 00:26:28.570 align:middle line:84% that Kerouac came out with, those wonderful three albums, 00:26:28.570 --> 00:26:30.380 align:middle line:90% then you could hear. 00:26:30.380 --> 00:26:33.530 align:middle line:84% In fact, there's a track he did with two tenor players, which 00:26:33.530 --> 00:26:37.750 align:middle line:84% was, I think, the best recorded poetry and jazz there is-- 00:26:37.750 --> 00:26:41.440 align:middle line:84% just two saxes and he alternating and playing 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.490 align:middle line:90% behind each other. 00:26:43.490 --> 00:26:46.970 align:middle line:90% So that's true right away. 00:26:46.970 --> 00:26:48.790 align:middle line:84% Other than that, it's just a difference 00:26:48.790 --> 00:26:50.710 align:middle line:90% between music and words. 00:26:50.710 --> 00:26:55.840 align:middle line:84% I mean, I get sort of fascinated lately with all those old 00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:59.920 align:middle line:84% songs, the so-called great American songbook-- 00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:03.220 align:middle line:84% "Body and Soul" and "Stardust" and all that. 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:05.890 align:middle line:90% 00:27:05.890 --> 00:27:07.420 align:middle line:84% First of all, they're great songs. 00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:12.550 align:middle line:84% But also the lyrics are not poetry. 00:27:12.550 --> 00:27:14.255 align:middle line:90% They're lyrics. 00:27:14.255 --> 00:27:15.880 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's sort of like that argument 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:17.660 align:middle line:90% that Dylan came out with. 00:27:17.660 --> 00:27:19.450 align:middle line:90% Everybody said he's a poet. 00:27:19.450 --> 00:27:23.920 align:middle line:84% And I think he said himself that he didn't think he was a poet. 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:26.950 align:middle line:84% And in fact, he's not, he's a lyricist. 00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:28.690 align:middle line:84% But that's an incredible thing to be. 00:27:28.690 --> 00:27:32.470 align:middle line:84% And to see the difference between lyrics that 00:27:32.470 --> 00:27:34.180 align:middle line:90% fit perfectly, those melodies. 00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:36.970 align:middle line:84% And melodies themselves are a great mystery. 00:27:36.970 --> 00:27:40.980 align:middle line:84% Who comes up with those melodies that are memorable and then 00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:43.400 align:middle line:90% fits perfect words to them? 00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:47.260 align:middle line:84% And that's something, I think, a poet kind of doesn't do. 00:27:47.260 --> 00:27:48.550 align:middle line:90% We do something else. 00:27:48.550 --> 00:27:50.830 align:middle line:90% We try to aspire to it. 00:27:50.830 --> 00:27:53.170 align:middle line:84% I mean, Zukofsky said something of-- 00:27:53.170 --> 00:27:56.710 align:middle line:84% poetry aspires of the upper limits of music. 00:27:56.710 --> 00:27:59.710 align:middle line:90% And I agree with that. 00:27:59.710 --> 00:28:03.880 align:middle line:84% I think music is the greatest art because it takes us 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.480 align:middle line:84% to a place that you can't use words for. 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:12.012 align:middle line:84% And in a way, I've been trying to use words to do that. 00:28:12.012 --> 00:28:13.720 align:middle line:84% I mean, [INAUDIBLE] battering against it, 00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:17.470 align:middle line:90% there has to be some resistance. 00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:21.890 align:middle line:84% And some pretty good things happen sometimes. 00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:23.000 align:middle line:90%