WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.410 align:middle line:90%


00:00:04.410 --> 00:00:06.255 align:middle line:84%
When you say tricky,
politically, you're

00:00:06.255 --> 00:00:07.380 align:middle line:90%
talking about the new work.

00:00:07.380 --> 00:00:12.310 align:middle line:84%
And last night, I felt the
excerpts of that political--

00:00:12.310 --> 00:00:15.839 align:middle line:84%
sociopolitical and personal
political statements

00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:17.340 align:middle line:90%
from this book.

00:00:17.340 --> 00:00:19.430 align:middle line:84%
It's bound to be
tricky politically.

00:00:19.430 --> 00:00:21.840 align:middle line:90%
What does that mean?

00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:26.840 align:middle line:84%
Well, I'm pretty much an
unreconstructed lefty.

00:00:26.840 --> 00:00:29.060 align:middle line:84%
It looks like that's the
way it's going be for me.

00:00:29.060 --> 00:00:32.290 align:middle line:90%
Taking it all the way out.

00:00:32.290 --> 00:00:34.030 align:middle line:84%
I mean, today, I've
been riding around

00:00:34.030 --> 00:00:38.960 align:middle line:84%
on my borrowed bicycle in Tucson
thinking, yes, I love it here.

00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:40.630 align:middle line:84%
I want to live in
an adobe house.

00:00:40.630 --> 00:00:41.470 align:middle line:90%
I can stay here.

00:00:41.470 --> 00:00:44.784 align:middle line:84%
Then I thought, ooh so many
Republicans, I don't know.

00:00:44.784 --> 00:00:47.410 align:middle line:84%
It'd be really, you
know, it'd be hard.

00:00:47.410 --> 00:00:56.830 align:middle line:84%
But I'm in prison writing a text
for photographs of prisoners.

00:00:56.830 --> 00:00:59.695 align:middle line:84%
I mean, it seems to me rather
charge from the get-go,

00:00:59.695 --> 00:01:00.465 align:middle line:90%
you know?

00:01:00.465 --> 00:01:03.380 align:middle line:90%


00:01:03.380 --> 00:01:07.400 align:middle line:84%
And photography, of course,
is quite voyeuristic.

00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:12.940 align:middle line:84%
Being a visitor, a tourist in
a prison is very voyeuristic.

00:01:12.940 --> 00:01:14.590 align:middle line:90%
People have to sign rights away.

00:01:14.590 --> 00:01:16.305 align:middle line:84%
In order for you
to get there, you

00:01:16.305 --> 00:01:18.430 align:middle line:84%
have to do a lot of
negotiating just to get inside.

00:01:18.430 --> 00:01:21.350 align:middle line:90%


00:01:21.350 --> 00:01:24.595 align:middle line:84%
And then people
aren't doing life

00:01:24.595 --> 00:01:26.500 align:middle line:84%
at Angola for spitting
on the sidewalk.

00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:30.030 align:middle line:90%


00:01:30.030 --> 00:01:37.950 align:middle line:84%
And so even though I found I
liked almost every one I met,

00:01:37.950 --> 00:01:40.560 align:middle line:84%
I really enjoyed
my conversations,

00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:47.885 align:middle line:84%
and I feel sick in
my soul that how

00:01:47.885 --> 00:01:51.050 align:middle line:84%
our country does
things, just how it

00:01:51.050 --> 00:01:53.990 align:middle line:90%
goes without doing things.

00:01:53.990 --> 00:01:56.050 align:middle line:84%
The rate of
incarceration, the length

00:01:56.050 --> 00:01:59.396 align:middle line:84%
of the sentences, that we
still have capital punishment,

00:01:59.396 --> 00:02:03.280 align:middle line:90%
and on, and on, and on.

00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.530 align:middle line:90%
But it is complicated.

00:02:06.530 --> 00:02:09.363 align:middle line:84%
I mean, my friend Deborah
Luster's mother was murdered

00:02:09.363 --> 00:02:13.080 align:middle line:84%
by a hit man, and it took
nine years before they

00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:17.190 align:middle line:84%
caught this man who was
totally without remorse

00:02:17.190 --> 00:02:21.600 align:middle line:84%
in murdering the
stranger in her own bed.

00:02:21.600 --> 00:02:28.300 align:middle line:84%
And so Debbie's relation to
this project is complicated,

00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:31.570 align:middle line:90%
but she's very good with people.

00:02:31.570 --> 00:02:35.360 align:middle line:84%
She's very-- there's just no
borders in her relationship

00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:37.580 align:middle line:84%
to the people, which
is another reason why

00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:40.463 align:middle line:84%
I like to work with her because
I can kind of coattail that,

00:02:40.463 --> 00:02:43.370 align:middle line:84%
because I'm much
more quick to judge.

00:02:43.370 --> 00:02:46.470 align:middle line:90%
And people get on my nerves.

00:02:46.470 --> 00:02:48.330 align:middle line:90%
I just shut down.

00:02:48.330 --> 00:02:49.590 align:middle line:90%
So she's a great--

00:02:49.590 --> 00:02:52.910 align:middle line:84%
great interlocutor
for me in a way.

00:02:52.910 --> 00:02:54.710 align:middle line:90%
And so I'm just--

00:02:54.710 --> 00:02:59.840 align:middle line:84%
I'm really trying to
be sensitive to people

00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:07.750 align:middle line:84%
who are incarcerated and to
people who have been hurt,

00:03:07.750 --> 00:03:09.670 align:middle line:90%
have been harmed.

00:03:09.670 --> 00:03:11.460 align:middle line:84%
I mean, you just
look at something

00:03:11.460 --> 00:03:14.370 align:middle line:84%
like the address for
parents of murdered children

00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:17.100 align:middle line:84%
and you know the
damage from this deed.

00:03:17.100 --> 00:03:21.292 align:middle line:84%
And far-- it's not just whoever
particular victim was, but it's

00:03:21.292 --> 00:03:24.970 align:middle line:84%
just the spread
of that and how it

00:03:24.970 --> 00:03:27.456 align:middle line:90%
affects people's own families.

00:03:27.456 --> 00:03:31.120 align:middle line:84%
The perpetrator's own
families, kind of stuff.

00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:32.800 align:middle line:90%
So it's really complicated.

00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.440 align:middle line:90%


00:03:35.440 --> 00:03:40.900 align:middle line:84%
I remember one man at
this particular place.

00:03:40.900 --> 00:03:43.570 align:middle line:84%
It's quite famous, of course,
Angola, and it's huge.

00:03:43.570 --> 00:03:44.758 align:middle line:90%
It's 18,000 acres.

00:03:44.758 --> 00:03:46.654 align:middle line:90%
It's 53 square miles.

00:03:46.654 --> 00:03:49.288 align:middle line:90%
It's bigger than Manhattan.

00:03:49.288 --> 00:03:50.580 align:middle line:90%
They've got all these critters.

00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:51.630 align:middle line:90%
They've got horses.

00:03:51.630 --> 00:03:53.220 align:middle line:84%
They've got cats,
they've got dogs.

00:03:53.220 --> 00:03:54.530 align:middle line:90%
They've got mules.

00:03:54.530 --> 00:03:56.220 align:middle line:90%
They've got cows.

00:03:56.220 --> 00:04:00.000 align:middle line:84%
You know, so it's a
huge working farm.

00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.547 align:middle line:84%
They've got a four-year
Divinity School.

00:04:02.547 --> 00:04:04.005 align:middle line:84%
They've got all
these social clubs.

00:04:04.005 --> 00:04:08.510 align:middle line:90%


00:04:08.510 --> 00:04:12.730 align:middle line:84%
One man we spent some time
with was the fisherman.

00:04:12.730 --> 00:04:16.149 align:middle line:84%
He's a Cajun fisherman
from, like, four generations

00:04:16.149 --> 00:04:17.589 align:middle line:90%
of Cajun fishermen.

00:04:17.589 --> 00:04:19.800 align:middle line:84%
And there are two
lakes at Angola.

00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:24.030 align:middle line:84%
And he was fishing
Lake Killarney.

00:04:24.030 --> 00:04:28.048 align:middle line:84%
And the fish are for the
warden and his guest,

00:04:28.048 --> 00:04:29.419 align:middle line:90%
of which he has many.

00:04:29.419 --> 00:04:31.710 align:middle line:84%
[INAUDIBLE] takes
a lot of people.

00:04:31.710 --> 00:04:33.930 align:middle line:90%
Politicians and a lot of people.

00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:35.790 align:middle line:84%
Press and-- there's
a lot of press

00:04:35.790 --> 00:04:37.710 align:middle line:90%
that goes through this place.

00:04:37.710 --> 00:04:41.280 align:middle line:84%
And the inmates
don't eat these fish.

00:04:41.280 --> 00:04:44.980 align:middle line:84%
Though the inmates do eat
the fruit of their labor.

00:04:44.980 --> 00:04:49.180 align:middle line:84%
I mean, they do eat
from the fields,

00:04:49.180 --> 00:04:52.602 align:middle line:84%
and that prison also
feeds the other prisons,

00:04:52.602 --> 00:04:56.340 align:middle line:90%
because 300 acres just of okra.

00:04:56.340 --> 00:04:58.090 align:middle line:84%
If you don't like okra,
you're in trouble.

00:04:58.090 --> 00:05:02.430 align:middle line:90%
[LAUGHTER]

00:05:02.430 --> 00:05:04.770 align:middle line:90%
So this guy was so sweet.

00:05:04.770 --> 00:05:08.280 align:middle line:84%
I mean, he was so sweet I
thought I'd met the Buddha.

00:05:08.280 --> 00:05:11.610 align:middle line:84%
I came to Angola,
and I met the Buddha.

00:05:11.610 --> 00:05:17.700 align:middle line:84%
And he had really bad teeth,
and it's a little hard

00:05:17.700 --> 00:05:18.450 align:middle line:90%
to understand him.

00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:21.890 align:middle line:84%
He was very deep Southern
Louisiana accent.

00:05:21.890 --> 00:05:26.570 align:middle line:84%
And he was bottle
feeding a little colt

00:05:26.570 --> 00:05:30.380 align:middle line:84%
that he had birthed, and the
mother either rejected the colt

00:05:30.380 --> 00:05:30.987 align:middle line:90%
or had died.

00:05:30.987 --> 00:05:31.820 align:middle line:90%
I don't remember it.

00:05:31.820 --> 00:05:35.150 align:middle line:84%
So little tat was
being bottle fed.

00:05:35.150 --> 00:05:38.780 align:middle line:84%
And then he had a dog
that he was rehabilitating

00:05:38.780 --> 00:05:40.160 align:middle line:90%
that had been in another camp.

00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:43.070 align:middle line:90%
There are five camps at Angola.

00:05:43.070 --> 00:05:45.780 align:middle line:84%
And the dog had been abused
by whoever had had it.

00:05:45.780 --> 00:05:49.040 align:middle line:84%
And so it had -- it's whole
back end was totally sunken.

00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:53.240 align:middle line:84%
And he said that man
didn't need no dog.

00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.070 align:middle line:84%
And he was bringing
his dog back,

00:05:55.070 --> 00:05:59.490 align:middle line:84%
and the dog was clearly
devoted to know him.

00:05:59.490 --> 00:06:00.870 align:middle line:90%
And he could tell you--

00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:03.030 align:middle line:84%
I mean, seasonally,
he was so adept.

00:06:03.030 --> 00:06:06.120 align:middle line:84%
I mean, even if you are a city
person, when you come here,

00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:09.300 align:middle line:84%
you become a farm person
because it's a farm.

00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:12.690 align:middle line:84%
And so he knew where
all the doves eggs were.

00:06:12.690 --> 00:06:15.210 align:middle line:90%
He knew everything that stirred.

00:06:15.210 --> 00:06:17.650 align:middle line:90%
He was very acute to it.

00:06:17.650 --> 00:06:21.610 align:middle line:84%
I just thought he
was unbelievable.

00:06:21.610 --> 00:06:25.350 align:middle line:84%
And then months later,
I was out for dinner

00:06:25.350 --> 00:06:30.960 align:middle line:84%
with a classifications
officer named Kathy Jett.

00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:33.800 align:middle line:84%
And I started asking
her about Nolan

00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:37.020 align:middle line:84%
and how his dog Ginger
was, and blah, blah.

00:06:37.020 --> 00:06:40.930 align:middle line:90%
And she said, oh, yeah.

00:06:40.930 --> 00:06:44.560 align:middle line:84%
And I never ask any
inmates what they do.

00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:50.040 align:middle line:84%
And I said, all right,
so tell me what'd he do.

00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:53.990 align:middle line:84%
And she said, well,
he strangled a woman.

00:06:53.990 --> 00:06:57.120 align:middle line:84%
First he raped her,
then he strangled her.

00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.370 align:middle line:84%
She was a young mother; she
had two or three children.

00:06:59.370 --> 00:07:01.140 align:middle line:84%
And he propped her
up on the bar stool,

00:07:01.140 --> 00:07:04.200 align:middle line:84%
and then he stuck an
aerosol can up her,

00:07:04.200 --> 00:07:07.650 align:middle line:84%
and he put her there on display
so that her husband would

00:07:07.650 --> 00:07:09.660 align:middle line:90%
see her when she [INAUDIBLE].

00:07:09.660 --> 00:07:13.470 align:middle line:84%
So this was the Buddha,
and I thought, well,

00:07:13.470 --> 00:07:16.640 align:middle line:90%
maybe not the Buddha.

00:07:16.640 --> 00:07:19.760 align:middle line:90%
I mean, it's really hard.

00:07:19.760 --> 00:07:23.282 align:middle line:84%
And I mean, this guy
is just a sweetheart.

00:07:23.282 --> 00:07:25.240 align:middle line:84%
I mean, I don't think
he'd be doing that again,

00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:30.850 align:middle line:84%
but still people don't
get over things like that.

00:07:30.850 --> 00:07:32.155 align:middle line:90%
It's really tricky.

00:07:32.155 --> 00:07:33.640 align:middle line:90%
It's really tricky.

00:07:33.640 --> 00:07:36.610 align:middle line:84%
And there's a huge
segment of Angola.

00:07:36.610 --> 00:07:40.350 align:middle line:84%
It's old people,
very old people.

00:07:40.350 --> 00:07:44.560 align:middle line:84%
It just won the
huge hospice award.

00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:49.720 align:middle line:84%
There are people who come
in there when they're 16,

00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.600 align:middle line:84%
and they put them
in one of the camps.

00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:57.520 align:middle line:84%
It's mainly for younger
guys, maybe smaller guys,

00:07:57.520 --> 00:08:00.760 align:middle line:84%
maybe more overtly
homosexual guys.

00:08:00.760 --> 00:08:03.920 align:middle line:84%
So to a little bit of
protection before they put them

00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.840 align:middle line:90%
in the general prison.

00:08:05.840 --> 00:08:07.790 align:middle line:84%
And one of the
phrase that was used

00:08:07.790 --> 00:08:11.750 align:middle line:84%
was, we put them in there until
they've got a face on them.

00:08:11.750 --> 00:08:14.630 align:middle line:84%
And these guys are going
to be buried there too.

00:08:14.630 --> 00:08:18.410 align:middle line:84%
I mean, there are two
full cemeteries at Angola.

00:08:18.410 --> 00:08:20.295 align:middle line:84%
And I spent a lot
of time with them,

00:08:20.295 --> 00:08:21.920 align:middle line:84%
not a long time, we
spent a little time

00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.670 align:middle line:84%
with Mr. Redwine who
builds the coffins.

00:08:25.670 --> 00:08:27.340 align:middle line:90%
And build their cason.

00:08:27.340 --> 00:08:29.165 align:middle line:90%
It's a hand-built wooden cason.

00:08:29.165 --> 00:08:33.129 align:middle line:90%
It's pulled by draft horses.

00:08:33.129 --> 00:08:39.830 align:middle line:90%
And crime is a young man's game.

00:08:39.830 --> 00:08:42.740 align:middle line:84%
These guys-- you do something
really, really awful,

00:08:42.740 --> 00:08:46.340 align:middle line:84%
really irreversible,
but 40 years later, you

00:08:46.340 --> 00:08:47.435 align:middle line:90%
are not the same person.

00:08:47.435 --> 00:08:52.510 align:middle line:90%


00:08:52.510 --> 00:08:55.135 align:middle line:84%
And then there are a lot
of really damaged people.

00:08:55.135 --> 00:08:56.510 align:middle line:84%
Of course, there's
lots of abuse.

00:08:56.510 --> 00:08:57.860 align:middle line:90%
There's lots of poverty.

00:08:57.860 --> 00:09:00.418 align:middle line:84%
Poverty is the big
common denominator

00:09:00.418 --> 00:09:03.400 align:middle line:84%
of the vast majority of
the prison population.

00:09:03.400 --> 00:09:05.140 align:middle line:90%
There's lots of racism.

00:09:05.140 --> 00:09:08.890 align:middle line:84%
In a state that has
about 20% Black people,

00:09:08.890 --> 00:09:13.300 align:middle line:84%
85% of the people in
prison were Black.

00:09:13.300 --> 00:09:14.880 align:middle line:90%
You know, something's not right.

00:09:14.880 --> 00:09:17.160 align:middle line:84%
This goes from being
a plantation called

00:09:17.160 --> 00:09:20.550 align:middle line:90%
Angola to being a prison.

00:09:20.550 --> 00:09:22.710 align:middle line:84%
There's so many things
that are conspicuously

00:09:22.710 --> 00:09:25.130 align:middle line:90%
not right with that picture.

00:09:25.130 --> 00:09:26.000 align:middle line:90%