WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.690 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.690 --> 00:00:02.740 align:middle line:84% Hey, where are you people in the back? 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:05.730 align:middle line:90% Who are you? 00:00:05.730 --> 00:00:08.106 align:middle line:90% Flailing your arms. 00:00:08.106 --> 00:00:09.360 align:middle line:90% Well, I have a question here. 00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:10.277 align:middle line:90% I'll make my way back. 00:00:10.277 --> 00:00:11.520 align:middle line:90% Yes, yeah. 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:12.468 align:middle line:90% You're next. 00:00:12.468 --> 00:00:16.200 align:middle line:90% 00:00:16.200 --> 00:00:21.330 align:middle line:84% I see the word salvation, here and there, in your poetry. 00:00:21.330 --> 00:00:24.780 align:middle line:84% Gerard Manley Hopkins seems to be an influence on you, 00:00:24.780 --> 00:00:25.560 align:middle line:90% am I correct? 00:00:25.560 --> 00:00:26.550 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:00:26.550 --> 00:00:28.830 align:middle line:84% Are you in the same kind of, I guess, 00:00:28.830 --> 00:00:32.590 align:middle line:84% the same kinds of concerns that he had, in terms of salvation-- 00:00:32.590 --> 00:00:33.090 align:middle line:90% Well-- 00:00:33.090 --> 00:00:33.990 align:middle line:90% --quote, unquote. 00:00:33.990 --> 00:00:36.815 align:middle line:90% Well, I'm not-- no. 00:00:36.815 --> 00:00:38.190 align:middle line:84% There are some major differences, 00:00:38.190 --> 00:00:39.470 align:middle line:90% you know, he was a priest. 00:00:39.470 --> 00:00:39.986 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:00:39.986 --> 00:00:41.400 align:middle line:90% That's a big difference. 00:00:41.400 --> 00:00:42.580 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:00:42.580 --> 00:00:44.670 align:middle line:90% And I'm not-- 00:00:44.670 --> 00:00:51.120 align:middle line:84% I don't really have religious background or anything 00:00:51.120 --> 00:00:53.220 align:middle line:90% like that. 00:00:53.220 --> 00:00:56.280 align:middle line:84% The closest is studying Greek and Latin, 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:00.480 align:middle line:84% and that has fascinated me, with the relationship 00:01:00.480 --> 00:01:02.850 align:middle line:84% between divinity and human experience, 00:01:02.850 --> 00:01:07.320 align:middle line:90% or what we imagine of divinity. 00:01:07.320 --> 00:01:10.920 align:middle line:84% But what I'm interested in with Hopkins is how he seems to me, 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.710 align:middle line:84% he seems to be wrestling often with sexuality. 00:01:13.710 --> 00:01:17.010 align:middle line:90% 00:01:17.010 --> 00:01:22.680 align:middle line:84% And so, religion aside, just his ideas of what he thinks 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:29.500 align:middle line:84% are normal behaviors versus how he feels, 00:01:29.500 --> 00:01:33.150 align:middle line:84% or how he wants to behave, and that wrestling is something 00:01:33.150 --> 00:01:36.330 align:middle line:90% that I do identify with. 00:01:36.330 --> 00:01:39.930 align:middle line:84% I actually feel that most living-- 00:01:39.930 --> 00:01:42.660 align:middle line:84% truly living-- human beings wrestle with those things. 00:01:42.660 --> 00:01:44.580 align:middle line:84% I don't think that we're just handed down 00:01:44.580 --> 00:01:46.980 align:middle line:84% a bunch of rules of how to live, and then we 00:01:46.980 --> 00:01:48.225 align:middle line:90% think, fine, that's great. 00:01:48.225 --> 00:01:51.210 align:middle line:90% 00:01:51.210 --> 00:01:52.650 align:middle line:90% But also his-- 00:01:52.650 --> 00:01:56.980 align:middle line:84% I hope I'm not quite as twisted as he 00:01:56.980 --> 00:02:00.680 align:middle line:84% is in his syntax, and all of that, but I am intrigued by it. 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:03.820 align:middle line:84% I find it sometimes impenetrable, 00:02:03.820 --> 00:02:07.120 align:middle line:84% but also intriguing that it wasn't so for him. 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.620 align:middle line:84% So I'm afraid to teach his poems. 00:02:10.620 --> 00:02:11.310 align:middle line:90% I usually don't. 00:02:11.310 --> 00:02:13.530 align:middle line:84% I'm afraid someone will ask me about sprung rhythm. 00:02:13.530 --> 00:02:15.180 align:middle line:90% Yeah, give them essay. 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:17.460 align:middle line:84% Well, then I'll just-- and then I just cry, or-- 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:18.330 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:02:18.330 --> 00:02:20.610 align:middle line:90% --say, class is over. 00:02:20.610 --> 00:02:22.282 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:02:22.282 --> 00:02:23.740 align:middle line:84% I'm sure it meant something to him. 00:02:23.740 --> 00:02:25.710 align:middle line:90% I don't what it means. 00:02:25.710 --> 00:02:26.280 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:27.570 align:middle line:90% Sure. 00:02:27.570 --> 00:02:28.740 align:middle line:90% OK, we're back here. 00:02:28.740 --> 00:02:32.080 align:middle line:90% Hi, Cybele 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:33.820 align:middle line:90% Hi, I just had a quick question. 00:02:33.820 --> 00:02:36.850 align:middle line:84% When you're writing, do you find the form 00:02:36.850 --> 00:02:38.980 align:middle line:90% or does the form find you? 00:02:38.980 --> 00:02:40.240 align:middle line:90% The form finds me. 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:42.040 align:middle line:90% I just sort of write. 00:02:42.040 --> 00:02:47.410 align:middle line:84% I actually often write in a block of what looks like prose. 00:02:47.410 --> 00:02:51.880 align:middle line:84% And so I just sort of fill up a page and then, 00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:55.660 align:middle line:84% when I start reading things out loud, I feel-- 00:02:55.660 --> 00:02:58.210 align:middle line:84% I start hearing the pauses, and draw 00:02:58.210 --> 00:03:02.240 align:middle line:84% slashes where I think the line breaks might exist. 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:04.330 align:middle line:84% So that happens for a lot of drafts-- 00:03:04.330 --> 00:03:07.922 align:middle line:84% all handwritten-- and then when I feel sort of confident, 00:03:07.922 --> 00:03:09.130 align:middle line:90% then I'll go to the computer. 00:03:09.130 --> 00:03:11.530 align:middle line:84% I'm afraid to go to the computer because it's seductive. 00:03:11.530 --> 00:03:13.720 align:middle line:84% And as soon as it's typed on a computer screen, 00:03:13.720 --> 00:03:17.140 align:middle line:84% I think it looks finished and perfect, and I know it's not. 00:03:17.140 --> 00:03:20.220 align:middle line:84% But it's like a tease, or something. 00:03:20.220 --> 00:03:22.990 align:middle line:90% 00:03:22.990 --> 00:03:26.260 align:middle line:84% So, yeah, I feel like I just sort of-- 00:03:26.260 --> 00:03:28.090 align:middle line:84% I never go in thinking, oh, I'm going 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:29.950 align:middle line:84% to write this poem that will have stanzas 00:03:29.950 --> 00:03:32.740 align:middle line:84% that are all four lines and they'll 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:33.980 align:middle line:90% be this length or anything. 00:03:33.980 --> 00:03:37.810 align:middle line:84% But that's OK if you do that, it's just not my method. 00:03:37.810 --> 00:03:38.710 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:03:38.710 --> 00:03:40.540 align:middle line:90% Sure. 00:03:40.540 --> 00:03:42.370 align:middle line:84% In your poem, a mind like a swinging gate 00:03:42.370 --> 00:03:44.800 align:middle line:84% opens, you use the line that, horses inside me 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:46.970 align:middle line:90% uncorralled confuse them. 00:03:46.970 --> 00:03:47.470 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:03:47.470 --> 00:03:48.640 align:middle line:90% I love your line. 00:03:48.640 --> 00:03:50.440 align:middle line:84% Can you please unpack that, so I can 00:03:50.440 --> 00:03:53.950 align:middle line:84% get a better developmental understanding of it? 00:03:53.950 --> 00:03:56.142 align:middle line:90% Hold on, what is it? 00:03:56.142 --> 00:03:57.100 align:middle line:90% I don't know it either. 00:03:57.100 --> 00:04:01.960 align:middle line:90% 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:08.350 align:middle line:84% It's something about-- yeah, "all 00:04:08.350 --> 00:04:09.850 align:middle line:84% the horses I've corralled inside me 00:04:09.850 --> 00:04:13.143 align:middle line:84% set free, confused now, because now what?" 00:04:13.143 --> 00:04:14.560 align:middle line:84% Is that what you're talking about? 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:17.220 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:18.579 align:middle line:90% What does it mean? 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:20.383 align:middle line:90% Is that what you mean? 00:04:20.383 --> 00:04:21.250 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:04:21.250 --> 00:04:22.950 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah, no. 00:04:22.950 --> 00:04:24.520 align:middle line:90% I think, well-- 00:04:24.520 --> 00:04:28.420 align:middle line:90% 00:04:28.420 --> 00:04:36.520 align:middle line:84% I think, to me, what it means is it's almost like horses 00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:38.650 align:middle line:84% as something-- if you've corralled something, 00:04:38.650 --> 00:04:41.050 align:middle line:84% you've sort of organized it inside you. 00:04:41.050 --> 00:04:43.050 align:middle line:90% You've controlled it. 00:04:43.050 --> 00:04:46.930 align:middle line:84% But what about when they've all been set free, now, 00:04:46.930 --> 00:04:50.388 align:middle line:84% and they're confused and wandering all around, 00:04:50.388 --> 00:04:51.680 align:middle line:90% and they don't know what to do? 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.010 align:middle line:84% It's a way of, maybe, talking about losing 00:04:54.010 --> 00:04:56.110 align:middle line:90% control of your demons. 00:04:56.110 --> 00:05:01.930 align:middle line:84% And horses are fine when you've got them 00:05:01.930 --> 00:05:03.347 align:middle line:90% all trained and under control. 00:05:03.347 --> 00:05:04.930 align:middle line:84% It's a whole other deal if you've ever 00:05:04.930 --> 00:05:07.180 align:middle line:84% been among horses that are not in control. 00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:09.700 align:middle line:90% And it's quite dangerous. 00:05:09.700 --> 00:05:12.870 align:middle line:90% 00:05:12.870 --> 00:05:15.280 align:middle line:84% So I think I meant something like that. 00:05:15.280 --> 00:05:17.527 align:middle line:84% But what do you do in those moments 00:05:17.527 --> 00:05:19.360 align:middle line:84% when what you thought was under your control 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.065 align:middle line:84% has gotten out of your control, and now what happens? 00:05:23.065 --> 00:05:26.910 align:middle line:90% 00:05:26.910 --> 00:05:29.580 align:middle line:90% Hey. 00:05:29.580 --> 00:05:30.998 align:middle line:90% Is this? 00:05:30.998 --> 00:05:32.040 align:middle line:90% I can hear you from here. 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:35.820 align:middle line:84% Oh, but you can't from that way, because. 00:05:35.820 --> 00:05:37.680 align:middle line:84% They don't allow you to without a mic. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:39.030 align:middle line:90% It's rigid here in Tucson. 00:05:39.030 --> 00:05:40.270 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:05:40.270 --> 00:05:42.080 align:middle line:90% Oh. 00:05:42.080 --> 00:05:42.580 align:middle line:90% Mm. 00:05:42.580 --> 00:05:45.060 align:middle line:90% She's very nice. 00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:48.870 align:middle line:84% Is this-- what you mentioned about crawling your instincts 00:05:48.870 --> 00:05:54.465 align:middle line:84% and freed horses play into your use of the word "ritual?" 00:05:54.465 --> 00:05:58.560 align:middle line:90% 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.420 align:middle line:90% What do you mean? 00:06:00.420 --> 00:06:01.020 align:middle line:90% Well, OK. 00:06:01.020 --> 00:06:01.920 align:middle line:90% I'll just go with it. 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:02.490 align:middle line:90% OK, thanks. 00:06:02.490 --> 00:06:05.670 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:06:05.670 --> 00:06:08.490 align:middle line:84% Maybe, because I think that ritual 00:06:08.490 --> 00:06:11.670 align:middle line:90% can be a saving thing sometimes. 00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:14.580 align:middle line:90% It's nice if you have rituals. 00:06:14.580 --> 00:06:17.370 align:middle line:84% They give you pattern, and rules, 00:06:17.370 --> 00:06:20.580 align:middle line:84% and there's systematization to behavior, I suppose. 00:06:20.580 --> 00:06:23.380 align:middle line:90% 00:06:23.380 --> 00:06:27.360 align:middle line:84% But then, to me, there's a tension between ritual 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:28.800 align:middle line:90% and whatever the opposite is. 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.720 align:middle line:90% Chaos, I suppose. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:32.190 align:middle line:90% And chaos is fun too. 00:06:32.190 --> 00:06:35.040 align:middle line:90% 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.350 align:middle line:84% And I was speaking with the class this morning-- 00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:41.530 align:middle line:84% genesis class-- about how both sides-- 00:06:41.530 --> 00:06:45.790 align:middle line:84% It seems the trick is calibrating both of them-- 00:06:45.790 --> 00:06:49.240 align:middle line:84% the side that wants risk and the side that 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:51.040 align:middle line:84% realizes that risk can be dangerous 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:53.710 align:middle line:84% and that we have responsibilities. 00:06:53.710 --> 00:07:04.670 align:middle line:84% And so, yeah, I think ritual versus sometimes without-- 00:07:04.670 --> 00:07:06.680 align:middle line:84% beyond the control, things burst free 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:10.850 align:middle line:90% of our ritualization of things. 00:07:10.850 --> 00:07:12.697 align:middle line:90% And then what happens? 00:07:12.697 --> 00:07:13.780 align:middle line:90% But I'm intrigued by that. 00:07:13.780 --> 00:07:16.790 align:middle line:84% Is this also that faint heartedness you see? 00:07:16.790 --> 00:07:19.670 align:middle line:84% Yes, that's faint heartedness versus risk. 00:07:19.670 --> 00:07:25.260 align:middle line:84% And I feel like I have this real commitment to risk. 00:07:25.260 --> 00:07:29.160 align:middle line:84% Because I feel like there's no growth, as a human being, 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.040 align:middle line:84% but in particular as a writer, without 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:33.930 align:middle line:90% imaginative restlessness. 00:07:33.930 --> 00:07:38.190 align:middle line:84% And that requires being willing to fall into situations 00:07:38.190 --> 00:07:41.190 align:middle line:84% that you don't know, so you can be stirred into thoughts 00:07:41.190 --> 00:07:43.590 align:middle line:90% that you wouldn't have expected. 00:07:43.590 --> 00:07:46.890 align:middle line:84% At the same time, obviously, risk 00:07:46.890 --> 00:07:48.550 align:middle line:90% can get you in a lot of trouble. 00:07:48.550 --> 00:07:53.100 align:middle line:84% And so there's that other part that needs to behave, 00:07:53.100 --> 00:07:55.260 align:middle line:90% and should do so. 00:07:55.260 --> 00:07:58.480 align:middle line:84% And it can be just a very banal thing should. 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:07.500 align:middle line:84% Should I go out carousing and drinking on a Friday night? 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:09.930 align:middle line:90% Well, you could. 00:08:09.930 --> 00:08:11.490 align:middle line:90% How are you going to get back? 00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:13.200 align:middle line:84% Are you going to drive back drunk? 00:08:13.200 --> 00:08:16.950 align:middle line:84% It's wrong to drive drunk, apparently. 00:08:16.950 --> 00:08:19.120 align:middle line:84% It's illegal, let's put it that way. 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:24.075 align:middle line:84% And so, are you going to do it or are you going to not do it? 00:08:24.075 --> 00:08:27.240 align:middle line:84% And I think-- and yet, I think, well, 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.300 align:middle line:84% sometimes taking chances is the only way you're going to grow, 00:08:30.300 --> 00:08:35.710 align:middle line:84% but you could also die or harm somebody else. 00:08:35.710 --> 00:08:39.510 align:middle line:84% And at the same time, you could stay home every Friday night 00:08:39.510 --> 00:08:42.210 align:middle line:84% and say, well I'm safe and everyone's fine. 00:08:42.210 --> 00:08:43.110 align:middle line:90% That's great too. 00:08:43.110 --> 00:08:45.340 align:middle line:84% Which is also part of what you meant, 00:08:45.340 --> 00:08:49.740 align:middle line:84% I think, you used the term useless, uselessness? 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:51.270 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:08:51.270 --> 00:08:53.370 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I just wonder, I just wonder. 00:08:53.370 --> 00:08:55.440 align:middle line:84% Most of my friends don't agree with me, actually, 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.890 align:middle line:84% they think I'm out of control, and that I'm just trying 00:08:58.890 --> 00:09:00.850 align:middle line:90% to justify reckless behavior. 00:09:00.850 --> 00:09:01.680 align:middle line:90% But it isn't that. 00:09:01.680 --> 00:09:03.330 align:middle line:90% I just feel like there's-- 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:05.160 align:middle line:84% and it can be at any level, it doesn't even 00:09:05.160 --> 00:09:08.940 align:middle line:84% have to be going out partying, doesn't have to be sex. 00:09:08.940 --> 00:09:12.480 align:middle line:84% It could be trying a different restaurant. 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.538 align:middle line:84% And I know people who just always do the same thing. 00:09:15.538 --> 00:09:17.580 align:middle line:84% And it's like, well, it's Friday night, we always 00:09:17.580 --> 00:09:18.705 align:middle line:90% go to the Greek restaurant. 00:09:18.705 --> 00:09:19.860 align:middle line:90% I think, OK. 00:09:19.860 --> 00:09:22.330 align:middle line:90% Why don't we do Italian tonight? 00:09:22.330 --> 00:09:22.830 align:middle line:90% No. 00:09:22.830 --> 00:09:23.330 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:09:23.330 --> 00:09:26.233 align:middle line:84% And it's just, the world's going to explode. 00:09:26.233 --> 00:09:27.150 align:middle line:90% And I think it's fine. 00:09:27.150 --> 00:09:30.360 align:middle line:84% Or heaven forbid that I should say, let's just drive, and see 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.210 align:middle line:84% what restaurant we run into, and decide to go somewhere 00:09:33.210 --> 00:09:34.410 align:middle line:90% we've never been. 00:09:34.410 --> 00:09:36.270 align:middle line:90% And that's forbidden. 00:09:36.270 --> 00:09:40.620 align:middle line:84% So even at that level, I think you can risk-- 00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:42.600 align:middle line:84% my students keep asking me, I think 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:44.460 align:middle line:84% they think I'm asking them to go down 00:09:44.460 --> 00:09:48.000 align:middle line:84% and I don't know what they think I think they should do. 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:48.750 align:middle line:90% They're scared. 00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:50.520 align:middle line:84% Am I risking enough, am I doing enough? 00:09:50.520 --> 00:09:53.130 align:middle line:84% And you don't have to expose yourself 00:09:53.130 --> 00:09:56.220 align:middle line:90% to danger, just experiment. 00:09:56.220 --> 00:09:57.960 align:middle line:90% That's all. 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:01.310 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:10:01.310 --> 00:10:04.000 align:middle line:90%