WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.050 align:middle line:90% 00:00:01.050 --> 00:00:05.070 align:middle line:84% I don't have a plan, I hate to sound like it just 00:00:05.070 --> 00:00:08.580 align:middle line:84% happens but I don't know, as someone-- it 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:12.300 align:middle line:84% doesn't have to do with myself having lived through war 00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:15.870 align:middle line:84% but just I am surprised that fellow human beings are not 00:00:15.870 --> 00:00:19.800 align:middle line:84% struck by the fact that human bodies are so dispensable 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:22.470 align:middle line:90% and so completely meaningless. 00:00:22.470 --> 00:00:25.980 align:middle line:84% And if it's the body of the homeless person we see around 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:28.560 align:middle line:84% and we all have managed some kind of mechanisms 00:00:28.560 --> 00:00:30.990 align:middle line:84% whereby we pretend that he or she are not there 00:00:30.990 --> 00:00:34.380 align:middle line:84% or they're just the piles of bodies that die. 00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:37.770 align:middle line:84% And on the other hand, there's this eternal theme 00:00:37.770 --> 00:00:39.780 align:middle line:84% of that it's the same body that's 00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:42.420 align:middle line:84% capable of all the horrors and evils and all of the pain, 00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:44.810 align:middle line:84% it's the same body which is capable of all the pleasure. 00:00:44.810 --> 00:00:46.980 align:middle line:84% So I don't have a plan, just I think 00:00:46.980 --> 00:00:48.960 align:middle line:90% it has to do with my readings. 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:50.760 align:middle line:84% It's the kind of stuff that I read I think 00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:54.510 align:middle line:84% but, I mean, this is the most essential thing that we 00:00:54.510 --> 00:00:59.410 align:middle line:84% all share, our anatomies, so it's the most common thing. 00:00:59.410 --> 00:01:03.000 align:middle line:84% But I am personally fascinated and disturbed 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:08.190 align:middle line:84% by the coexistence of civilization and barbarism 00:01:08.190 --> 00:01:12.700 align:middle line:84% of violence and tenderness in every single human being, 00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:13.560 align:middle line:90% in every instance. 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:17.820 align:middle line:84% Although most human beings like to think that barbarism 00:01:17.820 --> 00:01:20.220 align:middle line:84% is out there but the way I see it 00:01:20.220 --> 00:01:23.130 align:middle line:84% is that they'll always coexist within us 00:01:23.130 --> 00:01:24.630 align:middle line:84% and within everything we do and say, 00:01:24.630 --> 00:01:29.510 align:middle line:84% so perhaps that's one way of dealing with that 00:01:29.510 --> 00:01:30.860 align:middle line:90% or trying to disentangle it. 00:01:30.860 --> 00:01:33.020 align:middle line:84% But there are no plans, I mean, if there 00:01:33.020 --> 00:01:36.740 align:middle line:84% were plans to write poems then we'd all go and read them 00:01:36.740 --> 00:01:42.230 align:middle line:84% but there are no plans, it's kind of a chemical process that 00:01:42.230 --> 00:01:45.860 align:middle line:84% involves reading, feelings, what one sees on a daily basis. 00:01:45.860 --> 00:01:51.310 align:middle line:84% And I watch the news and you see the bodies piling up 00:01:51.310 --> 00:01:54.700 align:middle line:84% and what else am I supposed to think when you see people 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:58.090 align:middle line:90% losing their heads or arms? 00:01:58.090 --> 00:02:00.740 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's not easy to write about this 00:02:00.740 --> 00:02:03.770 align:middle line:84% and I think a lot of people shy away from it. 00:02:03.770 --> 00:02:06.580 align:middle line:84% But I think the great thing about poetry 00:02:06.580 --> 00:02:10.990 align:middle line:84% is that everything should be a subject of poetry, so. 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:13.750 align:middle line:84% No, see, that's the thing about poets, we are liars. 00:02:13.750 --> 00:02:15.880 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:02:15.880 --> 00:02:18.280 align:middle line:84% But there are these angels on the ceiling 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:21.520 align:middle line:84% and I swear, for five months I will look at them 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.790 align:middle line:84% and they were beautiful and I'm thinking something 00:02:24.790 --> 00:02:26.870 align:middle line:90% has to come out of this. 00:02:26.870 --> 00:02:29.590 align:middle line:84% So then I imagined one of them did look crooked 00:02:29.590 --> 00:02:36.130 align:middle line:84% and I was scared for a while but [LAUGHTER] they never fell. 00:02:36.130 --> 00:02:38.200 align:middle line:84% That's a good question, and Nizar Qabbani 00:02:38.200 --> 00:02:42.610 align:middle line:84% is kind of a very famous poet, one of the most popular 00:02:42.610 --> 00:02:46.010 align:middle line:84% in the Arab world in the second half of the last century. 00:02:46.010 --> 00:02:49.240 align:middle line:84% And he was very open in writing poetry 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:52.510 align:middle line:84% about the human body, specifically the female body. 00:02:52.510 --> 00:02:56.495 align:middle line:84% But actually your question remind me of something, 00:02:56.495 --> 00:02:58.520 align:middle line:84% much of what I read and was trained in 00:02:58.520 --> 00:02:59.930 align:middle line:90% is classical Arabic poetry. 00:02:59.930 --> 00:03:02.900 align:middle line:84% And a significant section in every poem 00:03:02.900 --> 00:03:06.440 align:middle line:84% was the description of the body of the beloved most of the time 00:03:06.440 --> 00:03:07.440 align:middle line:90% happened to be female. 00:03:07.440 --> 00:03:10.130 align:middle line:84% So perhaps it's in the culture of unconscious 00:03:10.130 --> 00:03:17.830 align:middle line:84% but it's not uncommon for poets and for Arab poets to-- 00:03:17.830 --> 00:03:20.195 align:middle line:90% so it's part of the tradition. 00:03:20.195 --> 00:03:21.820 align:middle line:84% And I think if you mix that with what's 00:03:21.820 --> 00:03:25.330 align:middle line:84% happening to the body because of technology and modern warfare, 00:03:25.330 --> 00:03:26.560 align:middle line:90% then-- 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:29.350 align:middle line:84% so I like to think that I'm not that influenced 00:03:29.350 --> 00:03:32.230 align:middle line:84% by Nizar Qabbani because I stopped reading him 00:03:32.230 --> 00:03:33.925 align:middle line:90% when I turned 18. 00:03:33.925 --> 00:03:37.400 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHTER] No, I mean, he's very talented but what is very-- 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:38.650 align:middle line:90% I think he's fascinated by it. 00:03:38.650 --> 00:03:42.526 align:middle line:84% But you're right, I think he kind of reopened, 00:03:42.526 --> 00:03:45.640 align:middle line:84% encouraged other poets that not to shy away 00:03:45.640 --> 00:03:51.700 align:middle line:84% from discussing anything and that nothing is taboo, yes. 00:03:51.700 --> 00:03:54.550 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I mean, the criticism against Nizar Qabbani, 00:03:54.550 --> 00:03:57.670 align:middle line:84% he's a great poet and all but his worldview 00:03:57.670 --> 00:04:00.970 align:middle line:84% was very bourgeois, which is OK I mean, but it was always 00:04:00.970 --> 00:04:04.000 align:middle line:84% the lover and the beloved and a beautiful surroundings 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:07.330 align:middle line:84% and, of course, society is at the door, but-- 00:04:07.330 --> 00:04:09.940 align:middle line:84% Also, I mean, there were wars during his time 00:04:09.940 --> 00:04:13.000 align:middle line:90% but he did not live to see. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:19.600 align:middle line:84% I think the advent of satellite TV and all of that 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:21.970 align:middle line:84% has made things worse for some of us 00:04:21.970 --> 00:04:24.483 align:middle line:84% because back then there were newspapers 00:04:24.483 --> 00:04:26.650 align:middle line:84% and you would see photographs and they were powerful 00:04:26.650 --> 00:04:28.750 align:middle line:84% but I think the horrors of the era 00:04:28.750 --> 00:04:31.480 align:middle line:84% now is that it's so banal and so available. 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:35.290 align:middle line:84% But we've never in our history were 00:04:35.290 --> 00:04:39.190 align:middle line:84% able to see everything that's been happening as it happens 00:04:39.190 --> 00:04:41.080 align:middle line:84% all the time, everywhere, so I think 00:04:41.080 --> 00:04:46.240 align:middle line:84% that adds to the horror of what can happen to the human body. 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:50.080 align:middle line:84% Yeah, but Nizar Qabbani, I mean, it's true but Nizar Qabbani, 00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:52.900 align:middle line:84% you know, he wrote about political oppression 00:04:52.900 --> 00:04:55.450 align:middle line:84% while he worked as a diplomat and then he 00:04:55.450 --> 00:04:58.210 align:middle line:84% talked about the abstract ruthless ruler 00:04:58.210 --> 00:05:01.750 align:middle line:84% and he never said anything about the actual ruthless rulers. 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:03.730 align:middle line:84% And he claimed that he had opened 00:05:03.730 --> 00:05:07.420 align:middle line:84% a new vista in Arabic poetry but his entire diction 00:05:07.420 --> 00:05:12.070 align:middle line:84% is something that was achieved 800 years ago in Arabic poetry. 00:05:12.070 --> 00:05:15.130 align:middle line:84% But this is what some post-colonial societies suffer 00:05:15.130 --> 00:05:16.870 align:middle line:90% from, is this cultural amnesia. 00:05:16.870 --> 00:05:20.260 align:middle line:84% So we think it's modernity that brought us-- 00:05:20.260 --> 00:05:22.120 align:middle line:84% modernity brought some good things 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:25.510 align:middle line:84% but the erotic poetry and wine songs and wine poetry 00:05:25.510 --> 00:05:27.640 align:middle line:90% existed 700 years before. 00:05:27.640 --> 00:05:30.250 align:middle line:84% All that Nazar Qabbani did is that he was talented 00:05:30.250 --> 00:05:33.460 align:middle line:84% and he read that tradition and realized that actually 00:05:33.460 --> 00:05:38.500 align:middle line:84% fusing classical traditions with modern Western poetry 00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:40.690 align:middle line:90% into something new is good. 00:05:40.690 --> 00:05:44.350 align:middle line:84% And him being the product of his own background, I mean, 00:05:44.350 --> 00:05:47.020 align:middle line:84% he is the guy who is a diplomat and a cultural attache, 00:05:47.020 --> 00:05:47.890 align:middle line:90% which is all great. 00:05:47.890 --> 00:05:52.750 align:middle line:84% He spent his time at parties and having fun so, of course, 00:05:52.750 --> 00:05:54.790 align:middle line:84% he would write about all of these things, so. 00:05:54.790 --> 00:05:58.390 align:middle line:90% 00:05:58.390 --> 00:06:01.390 align:middle line:84% Well, the manuscript is actually about the actual, I mean, 00:06:01.390 --> 00:06:05.740 align:middle line:84% one of the tragedies of this last war in 2003 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:08.380 align:middle line:84% is the massive cultural destruction 00:06:08.380 --> 00:06:13.840 align:middle line:84% in Iraq of objects that are valuable to humanity, 00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:16.670 align:middle line:90% not just to soar once again. 00:06:16.670 --> 00:06:19.030 align:middle line:84% And to me, maybe it's problematic 00:06:19.030 --> 00:06:21.910 align:middle line:84% but I always said that I think, and allow me for saying this, 00:06:21.910 --> 00:06:24.250 align:middle line:84% I think the Nazis were more sensitive 00:06:24.250 --> 00:06:25.360 align:middle line:90% to cultural treasures. 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:27.040 align:middle line:84% I mean, they were horrible but when 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:29.415 align:middle line:84% they knew that there were cultural treasures around them, 00:06:29.415 --> 00:06:32.890 align:middle line:84% made sure to take them out and preserve them and sell them. 00:06:32.890 --> 00:06:35.530 align:middle line:84% It's a mixture of arrogance and ignorance 00:06:35.530 --> 00:06:39.850 align:middle line:84% that, no, that Babylon is completely destroyed now 00:06:39.850 --> 00:06:41.770 align:middle line:90% because it became a base. 00:06:41.770 --> 00:06:44.920 align:middle line:84% And it's more egregious because this is the second time 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.620 align:middle line:84% around, in 1991, and it's more egregious 00:06:47.620 --> 00:06:51.070 align:middle line:84% because archeologists, the American scholars 00:06:51.070 --> 00:06:53.810 align:middle line:84% warn the State Department that this should not be done 00:06:53.810 --> 00:06:55.390 align:middle line:90% and yet all of this was done. 00:06:55.390 --> 00:06:58.120 align:middle line:84% So to me it's just a moment when you realize 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:00.580 align:middle line:84% that, of course, at the same time 00:07:00.580 --> 00:07:02.500 align:middle line:84% I criticize people who, of course, spend 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:05.590 align:middle line:84% so much time worrying about manuscripts and artifacts 00:07:05.590 --> 00:07:07.550 align:middle line:84% but they don't care about human beings. 00:07:07.550 --> 00:07:09.550 align:middle line:84% So I always, at the same time, I mean, 00:07:09.550 --> 00:07:12.070 align:middle line:84% I'm maybe guilty of this because I feel sad for manuscripts 00:07:12.070 --> 00:07:13.688 align:middle line:84% because that's my training and field 00:07:13.688 --> 00:07:15.980 align:middle line:84% but at the end of the day, there are human beings dying 00:07:15.980 --> 00:07:17.720 align:middle line:84% and no one seems to care about that. 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:22.530 align:middle line:84% So that's one thing, the other question was about? 00:07:22.530 --> 00:07:25.080 align:middle line:84% The question was the country that never was. 00:07:25.080 --> 00:07:27.015 align:middle line:84% The country, well, it's-- you know, 00:07:27.015 --> 00:07:28.617 align:middle line:84% all of these post-colonial countries, 00:07:28.617 --> 00:07:30.450 align:middle line:84% and sorry for saying the word post-colonial, 00:07:30.450 --> 00:07:32.940 align:middle line:84% I think a lot of people have an allergic reaction to it, 00:07:32.940 --> 00:07:38.970 align:middle line:84% because all the national myths that every country grows up 00:07:38.970 --> 00:07:42.270 align:middle line:84% with, that we in Iraq grow up with them about what 00:07:42.270 --> 00:07:43.740 align:middle line:90% the country was. 00:07:43.740 --> 00:07:45.270 align:middle line:84% And on the other hand, it was what 00:07:45.270 --> 00:07:49.310 align:middle line:84% it's supposed to be because for those who were pro-Saddam 00:07:49.310 --> 00:07:51.275 align:middle line:84% would tell us about all the great things 00:07:51.275 --> 00:07:52.650 align:middle line:84% they achieved under Saddam, which 00:07:52.650 --> 00:07:56.430 align:middle line:84% is a reductive way of looking at history because Iraq is 00:07:56.430 --> 00:07:59.070 align:middle line:84% a nation state that was built in 1920s 00:07:59.070 --> 00:08:00.630 align:middle line:90% and Saddam is a latecomer. 00:08:00.630 --> 00:08:03.930 align:middle line:84% And he actually, if you look at it from a bird's eye view, 00:08:03.930 --> 00:08:06.060 align:middle line:84% he didn't do much, he actually did more destruction 00:08:06.060 --> 00:08:09.930 align:middle line:84% but for whatever reason, the pro-Saddamists and others 00:08:09.930 --> 00:08:12.900 align:middle line:84% think, say, Iraq was so great because of Saddam. 00:08:12.900 --> 00:08:16.080 align:middle line:84% And the other, the pro-war party, 00:08:16.080 --> 00:08:17.880 align:middle line:84% which is not only Americans but some Iraqis 00:08:17.880 --> 00:08:21.620 align:middle line:84% also what at the time you remember promising us 00:08:21.620 --> 00:08:23.267 align:middle line:84% that this is going to be Hong Kong, 00:08:23.267 --> 00:08:24.600 align:middle line:90% this is going to be all of that. 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:29.030 align:middle line:84% So both discourses were hollow and this country 00:08:29.030 --> 00:08:32.659 align:middle line:84% was never the way it's being described 00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:35.750 align:middle line:84% right now because one horrible thing is what nostalgia does. 00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:38.100 align:middle line:84% I mean, one of our greatest living poets 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:40.370 align:middle line:84% says, "Nostalgia my enemy," because he's 00:08:40.370 --> 00:08:41.900 align:middle line:84% saying that nostalgia is important, 00:08:41.900 --> 00:08:43.760 align:middle line:84% of course, for diaspora community 00:08:43.760 --> 00:08:45.500 align:middle line:84% but it's also destructive because it 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:48.390 align:middle line:84% creates this mythical past that never existed. 00:08:48.390 --> 00:08:51.980 align:middle line:84% So the problem is how do you articulate a position whereby 00:08:51.980 --> 00:08:56.030 align:middle line:84% you're against dictatorship and you are against invasion 00:08:56.030 --> 00:08:59.900 align:middle line:84% and you want to acknowledge the suffering and the victims 00:08:59.900 --> 00:09:01.340 align:middle line:90% of all. 00:09:01.340 --> 00:09:04.550 align:middle line:84% Nowadays a lot of people, even in this country, 00:09:04.550 --> 00:09:07.340 align:middle line:84% care more about the victims of the occupation than the victims 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:09.170 align:middle line:84% of Saddam, so there is a silencing, 00:09:09.170 --> 00:09:11.360 align:middle line:84% even by some American citizens who are, of course, 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:12.590 align:middle line:90% anti-imperialist. 00:09:12.590 --> 00:09:15.290 align:middle line:84% So if we have a meeting to organize 00:09:15.290 --> 00:09:17.480 align:middle line:84% and I say something about suffering under Saddam, 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:21.765 align:middle line:84% I'm silenced right away and I'm told that I'm an imperialist. 00:09:21.765 --> 00:09:23.390 align:middle line:84% And on the other side, people are like, 00:09:23.390 --> 00:09:26.000 align:middle line:84% well, we should-- let's not, Saddam is gone and it's over. 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.980 align:middle line:84% So it's a horrible way of looking at history 00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:31.610 align:middle line:84% because if you do not understand what really took place 00:09:31.610 --> 00:09:35.300 align:middle line:84% and what the effects were on society, it will keep going on. 00:09:35.300 --> 00:09:39.860 align:middle line:84% So I tried to crystallize it all in to show 00:09:39.860 --> 00:09:43.730 align:middle line:84% the impossibility of this moment because nowadays also people 00:09:43.730 --> 00:09:48.890 align:middle line:84% are changing positions so that caring about Iraq by Iraqis 00:09:48.890 --> 00:09:53.480 align:middle line:84% and non-Iraqis and feeling sad for its suffering is hijacked 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:56.120 align:middle line:84% and translated into Saddam was really good 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:58.640 align:middle line:84% and things were much better and all these ridiculous things 00:09:58.640 --> 00:10:01.580 align:middle line:84% that are an affront to human beings. 00:10:01.580 --> 00:10:05.630 align:middle line:84% Because if a person is killed by Saddam Hussein or by a soldier, 00:10:05.630 --> 00:10:09.490 align:middle line:84% a person is killed and it's a life but these values-- 00:10:09.490 --> 00:10:14.690 align:middle line:84% I'm always fascinated by the value we assign to human life. 00:10:14.690 --> 00:10:17.030 align:middle line:84% If I had more time I'm thinking of an installation 00:10:17.030 --> 00:10:20.150 align:middle line:84% whereby there is a chart because who really 00:10:20.150 --> 00:10:23.900 align:middle line:84% equals one real human life, as Judith Butler says, 00:10:23.900 --> 00:10:26.090 align:middle line:90% that's grievous and worthy. 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:30.740 align:middle line:84% And you can imagine, because one person from a certain society 00:10:30.740 --> 00:10:36.510 align:middle line:84% is obviously equal to 800,000 from another society, 00:10:36.510 --> 00:10:37.680 align:middle line:90% and so on and so forth. 00:10:37.680 --> 00:10:41.270 align:middle line:84% So I don't know, your questions took me-- 00:10:41.270 --> 00:10:42.980 align:middle line:84% I don't know if I'm making any sense 00:10:42.980 --> 00:10:45.110 align:middle line:84% but, hey, it's a good opportunity to vent. 00:10:45.110 --> 00:10:48.870 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHTER] No, but I one example, sorry, 00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:51.300 align:middle line:84% we took us away from poetry but, for example, 00:10:51.300 --> 00:10:52.400 align:middle line:90% the value of human life. 00:10:52.400 --> 00:10:56.300 align:middle line:84% In Darfur there is genocide or we differ over the terminology 00:10:56.300 --> 00:10:59.960 align:middle line:84% and people are really upset and, OK, in the neighboring country, 00:10:59.960 --> 00:11:01.473 align:middle line:84% the Central African Republic, there 00:11:01.473 --> 00:11:03.890 align:middle line:84% are more people being killed and no one ever mentions them 00:11:03.890 --> 00:11:06.560 align:middle line:84% because also even the issue of human rights 00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:08.840 align:middle line:84% becomes kind of a boutique approach, 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:11.330 align:middle line:84% you know, I'm going to care about these human lives. 00:11:11.330 --> 00:11:14.270 align:middle line:84% And, of course, the victims acquire more humanity 00:11:14.270 --> 00:11:16.910 align:middle line:90% depending on their oppressors. 00:11:16.910 --> 00:11:20.360 align:middle line:84% So let's face it, because in Darfur the Arabs 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:23.630 align:middle line:84% and the Muslims can be blamed for killing, it's good, 00:11:23.630 --> 00:11:28.190 align:middle line:84% let's bring it on but in the Congo it's a bit more complex 00:11:28.190 --> 00:11:31.413 align:middle line:84% and you can't identify one monstrous oppressor, what's 00:11:31.413 --> 00:11:32.705 align:middle line:90% his name in the New York Times? 00:11:32.705 --> 00:11:35.570 align:middle line:84% He's never writes about it, Nicholas Kristof. 00:11:35.570 --> 00:11:40.020 align:middle line:84% So that's a very prosaic end to the Q&A period 00:11:40.020 --> 00:11:43.490 align:middle line:84% but thank you very much for your patience. 00:11:43.490 --> 00:11:44.990 align:middle line:90% [AUDIENCE CLAPPING] 00:11:44.990 --> 00:11:46.508 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:11:46.508 --> 00:11:47.008 align:middle line:90%