WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.410 align:middle line:90% 00:00:01.410 --> 00:00:04.300 align:middle line:84% I will I'll be glad to answer your questions. 00:00:04.300 --> 00:00:04.800 align:middle line:90% Please. 00:00:04.800 --> 00:00:06.790 align:middle line:90% Can I have a samosa? 00:00:06.790 --> 00:00:07.330 align:middle line:90% Yeah, man. 00:00:07.330 --> 00:00:09.460 align:middle line:84% I always have a few in my back pocket. 00:00:09.460 --> 00:00:14.320 align:middle line:84% No, these ones are magical, they'll probably damage you. 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.690 align:middle line:84% They'll make you enthralled with the meat, 00:00:16.690 --> 00:00:19.480 align:middle line:84% and then you'll have to take a ticket to Pakistan 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:22.579 align:middle line:90% and live and do terrible things. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:23.746 align:middle line:90% I think we have a question-- 00:00:23.746 --> 00:00:24.550 align:middle line:90% I have a question. 00:00:24.550 --> 00:00:25.780 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:00:25.780 --> 00:00:30.430 align:middle line:84% And that is there are a lot of writers 00:00:30.430 --> 00:00:37.510 align:middle line:84% who write for themselves when the words are coming out. 00:00:37.510 --> 00:00:40.520 align:middle line:84% And I was curious whether you are 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.780 align:middle line:84% the audience that you write for, and if not, 00:00:43.780 --> 00:00:44.743 align:middle line:90% who is your audience? 00:00:44.743 --> 00:00:46.660 align:middle line:84% And the other thing I was really curious about 00:00:46.660 --> 00:00:50.920 align:middle line:84% is about your audience in Pakistan-- 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:53.740 align:middle line:90% 00:00:53.740 --> 00:00:58.930 align:middle line:84% how do Pakistanis in Pakistan respond to your stories? 00:00:58.930 --> 00:01:01.900 align:middle line:84% And I suppose the role that class 00:01:01.900 --> 00:01:05.080 align:middle line:84% plays in all of this when you write in English. 00:01:05.080 --> 00:01:08.320 align:middle line:90% That's like a PhD thesis. 00:01:08.320 --> 00:01:10.480 align:middle line:84% But I'll try to break it up in a bit. 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:13.120 align:middle line:90% 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:15.640 align:middle line:84% The first question is about audience 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.430 align:middle line:90% and about who do you write for. 00:01:18.430 --> 00:01:21.550 align:middle line:90% I mean, obviously, when you-- 00:01:21.550 --> 00:01:24.880 align:middle line:84% I mean, not obviously, but when I'm writing, 00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:27.550 align:middle line:84% I am not thinking about audience. 00:01:27.550 --> 00:01:33.430 align:middle line:84% I am only concerned with the ecstatic moment with the story 00:01:33.430 --> 00:01:34.915 align:middle line:90% and with chasing the story. 00:01:34.915 --> 00:01:38.360 align:middle line:90% 00:01:38.360 --> 00:01:40.400 align:middle line:84% One of the things that I always try to remember 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:45.140 align:middle line:84% is that in one year or five years or 50 years 00:01:45.140 --> 00:01:47.690 align:middle line:84% or 500 years or 5,000 years, nobody's 00:01:47.690 --> 00:01:49.490 align:middle line:84% going to read anything I've written. 00:01:49.490 --> 00:01:55.430 align:middle line:84% And so writing is essentially a game for one. 00:01:55.430 --> 00:01:57.932 align:middle line:84% It's like a dingo barking on a hillside. 00:01:57.932 --> 00:02:01.280 align:middle line:90% 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:03.215 align:middle line:90% And that's fine. 00:02:03.215 --> 00:02:06.740 align:middle line:84% I'm willing to be a dingo barking on a hillside. 00:02:06.740 --> 00:02:08.750 align:middle line:84% On the other hand, writing obviously 00:02:08.750 --> 00:02:11.240 align:middle line:90% is about communication. 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:20.410 align:middle line:84% And therefore, it's necessary to have an audience-- at least 00:02:20.410 --> 00:02:23.180 align:middle line:90% some audience. 00:02:23.180 --> 00:02:31.070 align:middle line:84% I have sort of a cascade of people who read what I write. 00:02:31.070 --> 00:02:34.680 align:middle line:84% My wife is first, and then there are several others. 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:39.050 align:middle line:84% And in each case, part of what makes 00:02:39.050 --> 00:02:43.100 align:middle line:84% me make the story a certain way is I 00:02:43.100 --> 00:02:48.110 align:middle line:84% know or I can sense how these guys will react to the story. 00:02:48.110 --> 00:02:54.635 align:middle line:84% So if in the story, the puppy dog lives happily ever after 00:02:54.635 --> 00:02:56.675 align:middle line:84% and sort of the biggest thing that happens 00:02:56.675 --> 00:02:59.990 align:middle line:84% is it gets a new collar and he wags his little puppy tail, 00:02:59.990 --> 00:03:02.570 align:middle line:84% I know that they're not going to be delighted with that 00:03:02.570 --> 00:03:05.630 align:middle line:84% and that puppy finally has to sort of go out in the streets 00:03:05.630 --> 00:03:09.072 align:middle line:84% and get his tail run over and all sorts of horrible things 00:03:09.072 --> 00:03:10.905 align:middle line:84% happen to him before he gets the new collar. 00:03:10.905 --> 00:03:13.820 align:middle line:90% 00:03:13.820 --> 00:03:17.930 align:middle line:84% So there is this audience that one is aware of, 00:03:17.930 --> 00:03:20.270 align:middle line:84% and it's a combination of the two. 00:03:20.270 --> 00:03:23.120 align:middle line:84% I mean you write for yourself, you write for other people. 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:25.610 align:middle line:84% Your second-- there were a number of questions, 00:03:25.610 --> 00:03:28.610 align:middle line:90% but I'll just answer one more. 00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:31.910 align:middle line:84% You talked about a Pakistani audience. 00:03:31.910 --> 00:03:33.620 align:middle line:84% What I found which is really weird 00:03:33.620 --> 00:03:37.010 align:middle line:84% is that my audience in the West has 00:03:37.010 --> 00:03:43.940 align:middle line:84% been kind of pretty positive and nice and at least polite. 00:03:43.940 --> 00:03:49.010 align:middle line:84% The audience in Pakistan has been incredibly snarky. 00:03:49.010 --> 00:03:51.350 align:middle line:84% And I've thought about this a great deal 00:03:51.350 --> 00:03:54.350 align:middle line:84% and tried to figure out why they're so snarky, 00:03:54.350 --> 00:03:56.840 align:middle line:84% and what I've realized is that there's, 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:04.410 align:middle line:84% in Pakistan, this aggrieved sense of being second rate 00:04:04.410 --> 00:04:10.582 align:middle line:84% and the Pakistani intelligentsia, who 00:04:10.582 --> 00:04:14.460 align:middle line:84% are the only ones who read the stuff I write, 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:18.810 align:middle line:84% are constantly confronted with this sense of being-- 00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:21.329 align:middle line:84% because the intelligentsia have been generally educated 00:04:21.329 --> 00:04:25.485 align:middle line:84% in the West or have aspirations to getting a green card. 00:04:25.485 --> 00:04:28.590 align:middle line:90% 00:04:28.590 --> 00:04:31.530 align:middle line:84% So they have aspirations to being in the West, 00:04:31.530 --> 00:04:37.830 align:middle line:84% and yet they find that they're in the provinces 00:04:37.830 --> 00:04:42.300 align:middle line:84% and their language is English-- their primary language is 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:42.870 align:middle line:90% English-- 00:04:42.870 --> 00:04:53.060 align:middle line:84% and yet it's a small club and they're all sort of involved 00:04:53.060 --> 00:04:54.410 align:middle line:90% in fighting with each other. 00:04:54.410 --> 00:04:57.320 align:middle line:84% And it's very difficult for them to get out. 00:04:57.320 --> 00:05:02.270 align:middle line:84% And therefore, when one among them sticks his head above, 00:05:02.270 --> 00:05:03.140 align:middle line:90% they will attack. 00:05:03.140 --> 00:05:06.416 align:middle line:90% 00:05:06.416 --> 00:05:09.560 align:middle line:84% A writer in New York doesn't feel threatened by me. 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:11.330 align:middle line:90% He's got his own thing. 00:05:11.330 --> 00:05:15.170 align:middle line:84% A writer in Pakistan feels threatened by me. 00:05:15.170 --> 00:05:15.848 align:middle line:90% Yep. 00:05:15.848 --> 00:05:18.050 align:middle line:90% I have two questions. 00:05:18.050 --> 00:05:19.880 align:middle line:90% The first one-- 00:05:19.880 --> 00:05:23.850 align:middle line:84% Yeah, then that'll be, like, four less than him, so-- 00:05:23.850 --> 00:05:28.220 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] OK, so I'm wondering, well, 00:05:28.220 --> 00:05:31.670 align:middle line:84% you see really focused on the moment here in your poems. 00:05:31.670 --> 00:05:32.420 align:middle line:90% I see that-- 00:05:32.420 --> 00:05:33.400 align:middle line:90% Actually, my stories. 00:05:33.400 --> 00:05:34.670 align:middle line:90% In your-- I'm-- 00:05:34.670 --> 00:05:37.122 align:middle line:90% They're story poems, of course. 00:05:37.122 --> 00:05:39.110 align:middle line:84% Sorry, I was kind of thinking that way. 00:05:39.110 --> 00:05:41.040 align:middle line:84% OK, so you seem really focused on the moment, 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:44.930 align:middle line:84% but what about making connections, making the story 00:05:44.930 --> 00:05:49.370 align:middle line:84% flow, adding the boring bits as people call them? 00:05:49.370 --> 00:05:51.008 align:middle line:90% Do you find that difficult? 00:05:51.008 --> 00:05:53.300 align:middle line:84% I think it's a great idea to leave out the boring bits. 00:05:53.300 --> 00:05:58.080 align:middle line:90% 00:05:58.080 --> 00:06:00.890 align:middle line:90% That's, I think, a no-brainer. 00:06:00.890 --> 00:06:02.030 align:middle line:90% Yep, second question. 00:06:02.030 --> 00:06:06.740 align:middle line:90% 00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:09.890 align:middle line:84% When you're listening to poets read in high school, 00:06:09.890 --> 00:06:11.870 align:middle line:84% I never thought it would be useful to me. 00:06:11.870 --> 00:06:14.330 align:middle line:84% But I've noticed that when you were reading, when you start 00:06:14.330 --> 00:06:17.010 align:middle line:84% off your story, you sort of have an [INAUDIBLE] 00:06:17.010 --> 00:06:18.547 align:middle line:90% you change your voice. 00:06:18.547 --> 00:06:20.630 align:middle line:84% And as you get more comfortable in the flow of it, 00:06:20.630 --> 00:06:23.370 align:middle line:84% you started sounding more like Dillon Thomas. 00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:26.430 align:middle line:84% And I was wondering what was your favorite Dillon Thomas 00:06:26.430 --> 00:06:27.350 align:middle line:90% poem? 00:06:27.350 --> 00:06:29.840 align:middle line:84% Oh, that's a good one because you're quite right. 00:06:29.840 --> 00:06:33.170 align:middle line:84% I listen to Dillon Thomas reading all the time. 00:06:33.170 --> 00:06:34.610 align:middle line:90% I guess "Fern Hill," probably. 00:06:34.610 --> 00:06:37.200 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:06:37.200 --> 00:06:40.530 align:middle line:90% Which means I'm a romantic. 00:06:40.530 --> 00:06:41.660 align:middle line:90% There are so many good-- 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:44.090 align:middle line:84% I like the "Ballad of the Long-Legged Bait" and the way 00:06:44.090 --> 00:06:46.700 align:middle line:90% he does that. 00:06:46.700 --> 00:06:50.330 align:middle line:90% OK, next. 00:06:50.330 --> 00:06:50.830 align:middle line:90% Yep. 00:06:50.830 --> 00:06:55.690 align:middle line:84% You guys seem like you really enjoy poetry in Pakistan. 00:06:55.690 --> 00:07:00.470 align:middle line:84% You had gone there with a poetic air about you, 00:07:00.470 --> 00:07:03.564 align:middle line:84% but I've only heard you read [INAUDIBLE] other six 00:07:03.564 --> 00:07:05.850 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] this week. 00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:08.100 align:middle line:84% No, this is fiction and nonfiction. 00:07:08.100 --> 00:07:09.228 align:middle line:90% Yeah, go on. 00:07:09.228 --> 00:07:10.980 align:middle line:90% Have you always written poetry? 00:07:10.980 --> 00:07:18.330 align:middle line:84% I wrote nothing but poetry until 2001. 00:07:18.330 --> 00:07:24.210 align:middle line:84% But part of what happened for me is that I'm one of those great 00:07:24.210 --> 00:07:28.320 align:middle line:84% believers that there are hierarchies in literature. 00:07:28.320 --> 00:07:31.110 align:middle line:90% And the fighter pilots-- 00:07:31.110 --> 00:07:34.200 align:middle line:84% the cool ones, the one that have a little mustache-- 00:07:34.200 --> 00:07:38.220 align:middle line:84% is the poet, and they're the ones who sort of-- 00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:42.475 align:middle line:84% they attack people on the ground. 00:07:42.475 --> 00:07:45.540 align:middle line:90% And they're the ones who-- 00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:47.650 align:middle line:90% I aspire to be one of them. 00:07:47.650 --> 00:07:50.250 align:middle line:84% But what I, at some point, realized after many, many years 00:07:50.250 --> 00:07:53.010 align:middle line:84% of doing this was that I was fairly good at it, 00:07:53.010 --> 00:07:55.300 align:middle line:90% but I wasn't great at it. 00:07:55.300 --> 00:07:58.050 align:middle line:84% And that was sort of the first stage 00:07:58.050 --> 00:07:59.310 align:middle line:90% in my becoming an old man. 00:07:59.310 --> 00:08:05.280 align:middle line:90% 00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:09.720 align:middle line:84% So I've written lots of poems, but I 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.410 align:middle line:84% think they're not as good as my stories. 00:08:13.410 --> 00:08:16.280 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:17.270 align:middle line:90% I won't cry, I promise. 00:08:17.270 --> 00:08:20.010 align:middle line:90% 00:08:20.010 --> 00:08:21.510 align:middle line:90% Yep. 00:08:21.510 --> 00:08:23.760 align:middle line:84% How did you make that transition? 00:08:23.760 --> 00:08:26.640 align:middle line:84% And don't worry, hopefully it'll be one question. 00:08:26.640 --> 00:08:29.370 align:middle line:84% Well, anyway, as long as you keep hammering at this until we 00:08:29.370 --> 00:08:31.160 align:middle line:90% have gotten enough minutes past. 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.960 align:middle line:90% 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:35.400 align:middle line:90% How do you make that transition? 00:08:35.400 --> 00:08:37.110 align:middle line:84% There's no tran-- I mean, what it 00:08:37.110 --> 00:08:44.580 align:middle line:84% is it's a transition of giving up the dream, which 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:46.830 align:middle line:90% sounds horrible. 00:08:46.830 --> 00:08:48.900 align:middle line:84% But the new dream is wonderful, too. 00:08:48.900 --> 00:08:52.950 align:middle line:84% But it is a decision that you can't do that thing-- the thing 00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:54.120 align:middle line:90% that you most wanted to. 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:57.030 align:middle line:84% And at 18 years old, one day, I woke up 00:08:57.030 --> 00:08:59.370 align:middle line:84% and I looked in the mirror, and looking back at me 00:08:59.370 --> 00:09:03.900 align:middle line:84% was not Daniyal Mueenuddin, but sort of Adonis the poet. 00:09:03.900 --> 00:09:06.180 align:middle line:84% And it was the most amazing moment. 00:09:06.180 --> 00:09:08.520 align:middle line:84% And I looked at him and said, I love you, baby. 00:09:08.520 --> 00:09:10.065 align:middle line:90% You're so beautiful. 00:09:10.065 --> 00:09:11.685 align:middle line:90% And that was marvelous. 00:09:11.685 --> 00:09:15.160 align:middle line:84% And then, unfortunately, Adonis sort of aged 00:09:15.160 --> 00:09:17.775 align:middle line:84% and he sort of has been jogging too long 00:09:17.775 --> 00:09:20.880 align:middle line:84% or using these things that make your skin orange because you're 00:09:20.880 --> 00:09:23.820 align:middle line:90% trying to have a tan. 00:09:23.820 --> 00:09:27.153 align:middle line:84% So at some point, it became clear to me 00:09:27.153 --> 00:09:28.320 align:middle line:90% that wasn't going to happen. 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:32.910 align:middle line:90% 00:09:32.910 --> 00:09:34.215 align:middle line:90% And it was a decision. 00:09:34.215 --> 00:09:37.470 align:middle line:90% 00:09:37.470 --> 00:09:41.820 align:middle line:84% But then that journey had been incredibly useful 00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:45.390 align:middle line:84% because poets are the ones who think 00:09:45.390 --> 00:09:48.900 align:middle line:90% most deeply about language. 00:09:48.900 --> 00:09:51.270 align:middle line:84% And they get to use language in a way 00:09:51.270 --> 00:09:57.150 align:middle line:84% that fiction writers don't because we're not allowed-- 00:09:57.150 --> 00:09:59.280 align:middle line:84% fiction writers are not allowed to use 00:09:59.280 --> 00:10:04.920 align:middle line:84% rhyme except very rarely, and rhythm is so much more 00:10:04.920 --> 00:10:07.200 align:middle line:90% restricted in fiction. 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.700 align:middle line:84% But at least you've played around in that sandbox 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:16.710 align:middle line:84% and having written a lot of poetry, 00:10:16.710 --> 00:10:19.560 align:middle line:84% I've had all those experiences of thinking 00:10:19.560 --> 00:10:21.090 align:middle line:90% about words in those ways. 00:10:21.090 --> 00:10:26.700 align:middle line:84% And therefore, it all fed into this, and that's great. 00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:29.410 align:middle line:90% 00:10:29.410 --> 00:10:31.150 align:middle line:84% Just sort of going off of the question 00:10:31.150 --> 00:10:32.860 align:middle line:84% that someone else asked, and also, 00:10:32.860 --> 00:10:36.160 align:middle line:84% after you write your [INAUDIBLE] piece, I'm currently 00:10:36.160 --> 00:10:39.770 align:middle line:84% working on an intern study with Professor Fenton Johnson. 00:10:39.770 --> 00:10:42.280 align:middle line:84% and I guess my team right now is sort 00:10:42.280 --> 00:10:45.280 align:middle line:84% of exploring my own roots from India 00:10:45.280 --> 00:10:48.730 align:middle line:84% and feeling the sense of cultural bifurcation 00:10:48.730 --> 00:10:51.350 align:middle line:84% where I identify with the American culture, 00:10:51.350 --> 00:10:56.350 align:middle line:84% but I also want to get in touch with my family members in India 00:10:56.350 --> 00:10:58.770 align:middle line:84% and I want to understand that culture. 00:10:58.770 --> 00:11:00.400 align:middle line:84% And then when you mentioned that you 00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:03.880 align:middle line:84% felt that a lot of Pakistani writers 00:11:03.880 --> 00:11:07.870 align:middle line:84% would feel threatened by you, do you think that maybe that would 00:11:07.870 --> 00:11:09.730 align:middle line:90% be because of the sense-- 00:11:09.730 --> 00:11:12.700 align:middle line:84% and you know, Pakistani culture is probably in some ways 00:11:12.700 --> 00:11:16.300 align:middle line:84% very similar to Indian culture where what you're told, 00:11:16.300 --> 00:11:17.800 align:middle line:84% you don't question what you're told 00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:21.100 align:middle line:84% and you have to accept what your elders tell you 00:11:21.100 --> 00:11:22.840 align:middle line:84% and you have to accept at least I 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.290 align:middle line:84% have with my grandparents and my extended family. 00:11:26.290 --> 00:11:28.480 align:middle line:84% And do you think maybe there's a connection 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:33.190 align:middle line:84% between feeling that in America, we question things 00:11:33.190 --> 00:11:34.750 align:middle line:84% and we're always raising questions 00:11:34.750 --> 00:11:37.150 align:middle line:84% about why we should be [INAUDIBLE] be, why we 00:11:37.150 --> 00:11:37.850 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 00:11:37.850 --> 00:11:39.267 align:middle line:84% Do you think that maybe that sense 00:11:39.267 --> 00:11:42.155 align:middle line:84% of feeling threatened and other writers in Pakistan 00:11:42.155 --> 00:11:45.410 align:middle line:84% feeling threatened by you has to do with the fact 00:11:45.410 --> 00:11:48.080 align:middle line:84% that you're writing to sort of reveal 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:51.320 align:middle line:84% these questions of cultural identity? 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:52.850 align:middle line:90% That's really interesting. 00:11:52.850 --> 00:11:55.070 align:middle line:84% That's a question I've not been asked before. 00:11:55.070 --> 00:11:59.180 align:middle line:90% 00:11:59.180 --> 00:12:00.750 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I think you're right. 00:12:00.750 --> 00:12:03.320 align:middle line:84% I think that one of the things that's 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:10.310 align:middle line:84% culturally different about sort of the intelligentsia, 00:12:10.310 --> 00:12:12.500 align:middle line:90% if you want to call them that-- 00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:16.340 align:middle line:84% if one should call journalists and journalists intelligentsia, 00:12:16.340 --> 00:12:20.090 align:middle line:84% which is sort of part of-- journalists and writers 00:12:20.090 --> 00:12:21.277 align:middle line:90% bleed into each other. 00:12:21.277 --> 00:12:23.360 align:middle line:84% But the ones that I was particularly talking about 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:27.190 align:middle line:90% was journalists. 00:12:27.190 --> 00:12:29.955 align:middle line:84% In Pakistan, it's all about hierarchy, 00:12:29.955 --> 00:12:31.330 align:middle line:84% which is one of the things that I 00:12:31.330 --> 00:12:35.170 align:middle line:84% try to talk about inadvertently or advertently 00:12:35.170 --> 00:12:38.800 align:middle line:84% talk about in my book is that what's unique about Pakistan-- 00:12:38.800 --> 00:12:40.300 align:middle line:84% I think also about India, obviously, 00:12:40.300 --> 00:12:42.600 align:middle line:84% I don't really know India very well-- 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:46.120 align:middle line:84% is that everything is about where you stand in the grade. 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.870 align:middle line:84% And everybody knows their own place. 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:55.390 align:middle line:84% One of the things that I find most fascinating about Pakistan 00:12:55.390 --> 00:12:58.090 align:middle line:84% is that-- or one of the things that I find most telling about 00:12:58.090 --> 00:13:04.450 align:middle line:84% Pakistan is that you go to a dinner party, and-- 00:13:04.450 --> 00:13:07.600 align:middle line:84% unless it's friends, but if you go to a dinner where you have 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.360 align:middle line:84% had to go to a dinner because you have to be there 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:15.100 align:middle line:84% and everybody gets up-- you had to be there because it's some 00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:16.150 align:middle line:90% sort of duty dance-- 00:13:16.150 --> 00:13:20.180 align:middle line:84% and you get up, and then there's this problem. 00:13:20.180 --> 00:13:22.660 align:middle line:84% It's called, I think, the problem 00:13:22.660 --> 00:13:25.930 align:middle line:84% of the exit, which is who leaves first? 00:13:25.930 --> 00:13:31.870 align:middle line:84% Because if you leave before somebody who's senior to you, 00:13:31.870 --> 00:13:33.345 align:middle line:90% it's going to be a problem. 00:13:33.345 --> 00:13:34.720 align:middle line:84% So everybody sort of stands there 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.060 align:middle line:84% and does this sort of Alphonse, after you thing. 00:13:37.060 --> 00:13:39.940 align:middle line:90% 00:13:39.940 --> 00:13:41.800 align:middle line:84% They all sort of stand there and sort of-- 00:13:41.800 --> 00:13:43.390 align:middle line:84% and then it all sort of works out. 00:13:43.390 --> 00:13:46.390 align:middle line:84% And it's like when you watch pigeons landing 00:13:46.390 --> 00:13:48.130 align:middle line:84% and you watch and wonder, like, how 00:13:48.130 --> 00:13:50.380 align:middle line:84% does which pigeon know to land first? 00:13:50.380 --> 00:13:51.745 align:middle line:90% And it's the same thing. 00:13:51.745 --> 00:13:55.300 align:middle line:84% It's this beautiful eighth sense we have in Pakistan-- 00:13:55.300 --> 00:13:58.870 align:middle line:84% we can all figure out where we stand in terms of hierarchy 00:13:58.870 --> 00:14:00.110 align:middle line:90% relative to each other. 00:14:00.110 --> 00:14:03.355 align:middle line:84% So at the end of the evening, everybody gets out that door, 00:14:03.355 --> 00:14:07.180 align:middle line:84% and it's because we can understand these hierarchies. 00:14:07.180 --> 00:14:10.700 align:middle line:84% And in America, this doesn't happen. 00:14:10.700 --> 00:14:13.070 align:middle line:90% It's not a hierarchical place. 00:14:13.070 --> 00:14:20.660 align:middle line:84% So in Pakistan, I think that one of the things which I think 00:14:20.660 --> 00:14:25.700 align:middle line:84% is one things that causes Pakistani writing sometimes 00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:30.590 align:middle line:84% to be moribund is that you're not supposed to challenge 00:14:30.590 --> 00:14:32.120 align:middle line:90% the ones above you. 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.820 align:middle line:90% Everybody plays this game of-- 00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:37.772 align:middle line:90% 00:14:37.772 --> 00:14:42.290 align:middle line:90% you play to your rank. 00:14:42.290 --> 00:14:46.400 align:middle line:84% And therefore, I think that the veterans-- 00:14:46.400 --> 00:14:50.870 align:middle line:84% and obviously, there are a few writers who are people I know 00:14:50.870 --> 00:14:53.360 align:middle line:84% or friends of mine, and these guys are not-- 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.610 align:middle line:84% this way, it's mostly been journalists-- 00:14:55.610 --> 00:14:57.050 align:middle line:84% they are very offended by the fact 00:14:57.050 --> 00:15:01.550 align:middle line:84% that I've sort of not respected these hierarchies 00:15:01.550 --> 00:15:03.832 align:middle line:84% but instead have written these sort of wacky, crazy, 00:15:03.832 --> 00:15:05.540 align:middle line:84% or whatever you want to call them stories 00:15:05.540 --> 00:15:07.910 align:middle line:90% which are not part of that-- 00:15:07.910 --> 00:15:11.840 align:middle line:90% the tradition of that hierarchy. 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.900 align:middle line:84% There was another question, but can we-- yeah. 00:15:14.900 --> 00:15:17.650 align:middle line:90% I'm also from Lahore. 00:15:17.650 --> 00:15:18.150 align:middle line:90% Really? 00:15:18.150 --> 00:15:22.210 align:middle line:84% Yeah, and it's my late [INAUDIBLE].. 00:15:22.210 --> 00:15:24.490 align:middle line:84% My question, do you really think-- 00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:27.515 align:middle line:84% I used to go back to my village in the [INAUDIBLE] 00:15:27.515 --> 00:15:28.390 align:middle line:90% Where's your village? 00:15:28.390 --> 00:15:29.410 align:middle line:90% In Sialkot 00:15:29.410 --> 00:15:30.040 align:middle line:90% In Sialkot 00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:31.357 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:15:31.357 --> 00:15:32.440 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I know where Sialkot 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:36.922 align:middle line:84% And so I do come from [INAUDIBLE] My [INAUDIBLE] 00:15:36.922 --> 00:15:43.396 align:middle line:84% is growing all kinds of spinach, mustard, 00:15:43.396 --> 00:15:45.910 align:middle line:90% all kinds of vegetables. 00:15:45.910 --> 00:15:48.484 align:middle line:84% My question to you is what do you grow at your farm? 00:15:48.484 --> 00:15:51.760 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:15:51.760 --> 00:15:55.540 align:middle line:90% Poppy, we grew some dope. 00:15:55.540 --> 00:15:58.330 align:middle line:84% And unfortunately, we can't grow dope in our area. 00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:01.690 align:middle line:90% 00:16:01.690 --> 00:16:04.210 align:middle line:84% I actually sat down next to somebody once at dinner 00:16:04.210 --> 00:16:06.820 align:middle line:90% and he was very polite. 00:16:06.820 --> 00:16:09.070 align:middle line:84% So he asked me all about my farming and I said, 00:16:09.070 --> 00:16:09.945 align:middle line:90% what are you growing? 00:16:09.945 --> 00:16:14.560 align:middle line:84% He said, mostly poppy, mostly poppy. 00:16:14.560 --> 00:16:21.040 align:middle line:84% But I grow mangoes, sugarcane, wheat, cotton, and now 00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:24.940 align:middle line:84% I started growing vegetables in greenhouses, which 00:16:24.940 --> 00:16:26.800 align:middle line:90% is like these plastic tunnels. 00:16:26.800 --> 00:16:29.050 align:middle line:84% And now this year, which is the most fun, 00:16:29.050 --> 00:16:32.320 align:middle line:90% I've started growing flowers. 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.600 align:middle line:90% So I'm diversified. 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:36.520 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:39.730 align:middle line:84% I just want to add that I think it's an interesting anecdote 00:16:39.730 --> 00:16:43.000 align:middle line:84% that when bin Laden was killed last year, 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.850 align:middle line:84% I think the Pakistanis actually sent pieces of mangoes 00:16:46.850 --> 00:16:50.830 align:middle line:84% to congressional staff and congressmen and also the White 00:16:50.830 --> 00:16:51.520 align:middle line:90% House. 00:16:51.520 --> 00:16:54.160 align:middle line:90% Just do this wide angle of the-- 00:16:54.160 --> 00:16:56.290 align:middle line:90% Excellent idea. 00:16:56.290 --> 00:16:59.110 align:middle line:84% Good luck seems to change when they have the sweetest mango 00:16:59.110 --> 00:16:59.890 align:middle line:90% in the world. 00:16:59.890 --> 00:17:01.750 align:middle line:90% No, no, no, no, no, no. 00:17:01.750 --> 00:17:03.370 align:middle line:90% We don't have to. 00:17:03.370 --> 00:17:07.150 align:middle line:84% The difference between our mangoes and any other mangoes-- 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:10.779 align:middle line:84% we live in what's called the mango belt. 00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:16.030 align:middle line:84% And the mango belt, it like Chateau d'Yquem or something. 00:17:16.030 --> 00:17:21.160 align:middle line:84% My sister can identify six different types of mangoes-- 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:23.140 align:middle line:90% we've only tried it with six-- 00:17:23.140 --> 00:17:26.920 align:middle line:90% by taste blindfolded. 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:28.690 align:middle line:90% Mangoes are like wine. 00:17:28.690 --> 00:17:31.760 align:middle line:84% Literally, they are because we don't have alcohol in Pakistan. 00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:36.490 align:middle line:84% So actually, we have rivers of it, but we pretend we don't. 00:17:36.490 --> 00:17:40.600 align:middle line:90% 00:17:40.600 --> 00:17:43.270 align:middle line:84% So at least for the ones who don't drink, 00:17:43.270 --> 00:17:44.770 align:middle line:90% mangoes are sort of the thing. 00:17:44.770 --> 00:17:49.363 align:middle line:84% And people are so into mangoes and into all 00:17:49.363 --> 00:17:51.280 align:middle line:84% the different varieties-- and I won't bore you 00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:53.260 align:middle line:84% with the subject-- but I could actually 00:17:53.260 --> 00:17:55.480 align:middle line:84% talk about mangoes for at least two 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:57.610 align:middle line:84% or three hours with somebody who is 00:17:57.610 --> 00:18:00.280 align:middle line:90% passionate about the question. 00:18:00.280 --> 00:18:03.550 align:middle line:84% And so we grow the best mangoes, obviously. 00:18:03.550 --> 00:18:05.440 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.920 align:middle line:90% Or believe we do, yeah. 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.230 align:middle line:84% A lot of your stories are centered 00:18:11.230 --> 00:18:15.560 align:middle line:84% on characters who are servants, people 00:18:15.560 --> 00:18:20.550 align:middle line:84% of very low rank on the farm, or near the house 00:18:20.550 --> 00:18:23.560 align:middle line:90% of the landowner. 00:18:23.560 --> 00:18:27.570 align:middle line:84% So I was wondering how, given what you were 00:18:27.570 --> 00:18:31.140 align:middle line:90% saying about hierarchy and-- 00:18:31.140 --> 00:18:35.820 align:middle line:84% how difficult is it to get imaginatively 00:18:35.820 --> 00:18:42.010 align:middle line:84% inside the life of people of lower ranks and servants, 00:18:42.010 --> 00:18:44.880 align:middle line:90% that kind of thing? 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:49.290 align:middle line:84% I think what distinguishes me from a lot of the-- 00:18:49.290 --> 00:18:52.830 align:middle line:84% I mean, there are only a few others, but the other people 00:18:52.830 --> 00:18:55.230 align:middle line:84% I know who are writing about Pakistan 00:18:55.230 --> 00:19:01.380 align:middle line:84% and trying to inhabit other worlds other than their own-- 00:19:01.380 --> 00:19:04.350 align:middle line:90% is that I'm a business person. 00:19:04.350 --> 00:19:09.130 align:middle line:84% What I do most of the day is buy and sell things. 00:19:09.130 --> 00:19:15.020 align:middle line:84% And business is weird because when you do business, 00:19:15.020 --> 00:19:17.820 align:middle line:84% you're always trying to figure out the other guy. 00:19:17.820 --> 00:19:19.382 align:middle line:84% In America, when you do business, 00:19:19.382 --> 00:19:21.090 align:middle line:84% you just sort of write a voucher and say, 00:19:21.090 --> 00:19:24.360 align:middle line:84% you know, I'll buy 18 whatever it is from you. 00:19:24.360 --> 00:19:29.960 align:middle line:84% I'll buy 18 pallets of widgets from you. 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.540 align:middle line:84% And then that transaction is determined by the market 00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:37.380 align:middle line:84% and the widgets are selling for X amount and so on. 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:41.670 align:middle line:84% In Pakistan, business is a very fraught thing 00:19:41.670 --> 00:19:49.002 align:middle line:84% because there's no legal framework that protects you 00:19:49.002 --> 00:19:52.930 align:middle line:90% and information is limited. 00:19:52.930 --> 00:19:54.870 align:middle line:84% And so when you're doing business there, 00:19:54.870 --> 00:19:56.580 align:middle line:90% it's very personal. 00:19:56.580 --> 00:19:58.320 align:middle line:84% And therefore, what you have to do 00:19:58.320 --> 00:20:01.410 align:middle line:84% is you have to figure out the other guy. 00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:05.940 align:middle line:84% And either you're working in concert with them 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:09.480 align:middle line:84% and then you're trying to make sure that you can trust them, 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:13.410 align:middle line:84% or you're trying to screw them and then 00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:17.580 align:middle line:84% you're trying to figure out how to screw them. 00:20:17.580 --> 00:20:20.940 align:middle line:84% And either way, you're going to have 00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:25.140 align:middle line:84% to have a pretty intimate understanding of that person. 00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:29.610 align:middle line:84% And what's unique about farming is that I don't just deal 00:20:29.610 --> 00:20:31.920 align:middle line:90% with people who do widgets-- 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:36.210 align:middle line:84% I make widgets, he makes widgets, or he buys widgets. 00:20:36.210 --> 00:20:38.340 align:middle line:90% We're all into widgets. 00:20:38.340 --> 00:20:40.260 align:middle line:90% That's not how it works. 00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:44.870 align:middle line:84% I have many, many things that I buy and sell-- 00:20:44.870 --> 00:20:47.850 align:middle line:84% the oil for my tractors-- when I change 00:20:47.850 --> 00:20:51.630 align:middle line:84% the oil, which you change at every, say, however many hours, 00:20:51.630 --> 00:20:53.167 align:middle line:90% I've got the burnt oil. 00:20:53.167 --> 00:20:54.750 align:middle line:84% So there's somebody who's going to buy 00:20:54.750 --> 00:20:59.970 align:middle line:84% the burnt oil from my tractors, and we collect that into drums. 00:20:59.970 --> 00:21:03.330 align:middle line:84% And the guy who buys the burnt oil from my tractors 00:21:03.330 --> 00:21:05.190 align:middle line:90% knows a lot about burnt oil. 00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:07.470 align:middle line:84% I don't know a thing about burnt oil 00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:09.610 align:middle line:84% and I don't even know what he uses it for. 00:21:09.610 --> 00:21:13.530 align:middle line:84% But I know that if I can develop a relationship with this guy 00:21:13.530 --> 00:21:16.410 align:middle line:84% and get to know him and get to deal with him, 00:21:16.410 --> 00:21:19.410 align:middle line:84% maybe he and I can get into this whole burnt oil thing 00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:25.200 align:middle line:84% where we do burnt oil together and it can be beautiful. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:31.030 align:middle line:84% And so therefore, I become intimate with these people. 00:21:31.030 --> 00:21:36.390 align:middle line:84% And I think that that's been really huge in my ability 00:21:36.390 --> 00:21:41.400 align:middle line:84% to write about people quite dissimilar to me in Pakistan. 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.150 align:middle line:90% 00:21:45.150 --> 00:21:50.280 align:middle line:84% Once you start to write or channel your story, 00:21:50.280 --> 00:21:53.820 align:middle line:84% what's [INAUDIBLE] the occupation in your mind 00:21:53.820 --> 00:21:58.320 align:middle line:84% and do you think about that point of view as, say, 00:21:58.320 --> 00:21:59.840 align:middle line:90% the content to [INAUDIBLE]? 00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:03.160 align:middle line:84% What is the first thing that you think about? 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:10.190 align:middle line:90% 00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:12.170 align:middle line:84% I think every writer does it differently. 00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:14.480 align:middle line:84% But generally, what happens with me 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:23.080 align:middle line:84% is that there's some either situation or character 00:22:23.080 --> 00:22:28.630 align:middle line:84% that strikes me and that I want to spend time with. 00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:30.820 align:middle line:84% Writing a story is like going on a road trip. 00:22:30.820 --> 00:22:33.490 align:middle line:90% 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:36.250 align:middle line:84% You decided on a drunken evening, 00:22:36.250 --> 00:22:38.110 align:middle line:84% you say, hey, tomorrow, let's go to Florida 00:22:38.110 --> 00:22:42.580 align:middle line:84% and then drive to California, it's going to be so cool. 00:22:42.580 --> 00:22:46.950 align:middle line:84% And about one week into this thing, 00:22:46.950 --> 00:22:50.730 align:middle line:90% you just hate this person. 00:22:50.730 --> 00:22:52.165 align:middle line:90% And that's the way it happens. 00:22:52.165 --> 00:22:55.360 align:middle line:90% 00:22:55.360 --> 00:22:59.500 align:middle line:84% So you have to be careful who you go on this road trip with. 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:02.590 align:middle line:84% And therefore, you find something 00:23:02.590 --> 00:23:06.040 align:middle line:90% that is abidingly interesting. 00:23:06.040 --> 00:23:08.740 align:middle line:90% That's what I try to do. 00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:14.190 align:middle line:84% And then I begin from the beginning. 00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:18.620 align:middle line:84% And once I know it's going to be about this situation-- 00:23:18.620 --> 00:23:21.170 align:middle line:84% this girl comes to this rich person's house, 00:23:21.170 --> 00:23:25.670 align:middle line:84% or it's going to be about this person, this mechanic-- 00:23:25.670 --> 00:23:28.340 align:middle line:90% then I start from the beginning. 00:23:28.340 --> 00:23:32.330 align:middle line:84% And just-- there's a story, what's the story? 00:23:32.330 --> 00:23:37.540 align:middle line:84% And then after that, I don't diagram it 00:23:37.540 --> 00:23:39.790 align:middle line:84% because I think that one of the things that's 00:23:39.790 --> 00:23:43.180 align:middle line:84% really interesting that happens, it becomes more and more 00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:44.560 align:middle line:90% about character. 00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:47.290 align:middle line:84% As I'm writing a story, it becomes more and more 00:23:47.290 --> 00:23:48.580 align:middle line:90% about the characters. 00:23:48.580 --> 00:23:52.800 align:middle line:84% And what happens is that, first of all, 00:23:52.800 --> 00:23:54.620 align:middle line:84% the characters are sort of lying there 00:23:54.620 --> 00:23:56.450 align:middle line:84% and they're sort of flopping over. 00:23:56.450 --> 00:24:01.040 align:middle line:84% And then you're, like, pumping, pump, pump, pump. 00:24:01.040 --> 00:24:04.460 align:middle line:84% And at some point, they sort of sit up. 00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:12.680 align:middle line:84% And then they stand up, and then they become autonomous 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.500 align:middle line:84% and they start moving the story forward. 00:24:15.500 --> 00:24:18.830 align:middle line:84% And then it becomes inevitable, given this predicament 00:24:18.830 --> 00:24:21.140 align:middle line:84% into which you've placed them, that they 00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:24.320 align:middle line:84% will behave in a certain way and that the ending 00:24:24.320 --> 00:24:28.820 align:middle line:84% will be consistent with their personality. 00:24:28.820 --> 00:24:31.500 align:middle line:90% 00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:35.850 align:middle line:84% There's a wonderful story about Tolstoy 00:24:35.850 --> 00:24:42.440 align:middle line:84% which is that when he was writing Anna Karenina, 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.440 align:middle line:84% Vronsky, who's in love with this woman, 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:50.000 align:middle line:84% has decided with Anna, his girlfriend, 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:52.820 align:middle line:84% that they have to break up because she 00:24:52.820 --> 00:24:55.250 align:middle line:90% has to go back to her husband. 00:24:55.250 --> 00:25:00.215 align:middle line:84% So Vronsky-- this is Tolstoy speaking I think in a letter, 00:25:00.215 --> 00:25:02.660 align:middle line:84% or maybe in a journal, I'm not sure. 00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:05.540 align:middle line:84% In any case, Vronsky sort of goes back to his house 00:25:05.540 --> 00:25:07.850 align:middle line:90% and he's terribly depressed. 00:25:07.850 --> 00:25:10.850 align:middle line:84% And then Tolstoy says, and suddenly, he picked up a gun 00:25:10.850 --> 00:25:12.830 align:middle line:90% and shot himself. 00:25:12.830 --> 00:25:18.590 align:middle line:84% And I was horrified that the character had become 00:25:18.590 --> 00:25:21.890 align:middle line:84% so autonomous that he had behaved in a way that 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:24.380 align:middle line:90% was surprising to the author. 00:25:24.380 --> 00:25:26.210 align:middle line:84% And that rarely happens, I think. 00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:31.340 align:middle line:84% But when it does, that's when the story has found its place 00:25:31.340 --> 00:25:35.450 align:middle line:84% and has found its own rhythm and movement and direction 00:25:35.450 --> 00:25:40.470 align:middle line:84% and will then inevitably succeed. 00:25:40.470 --> 00:25:41.540 align:middle line:90% How are we doing on-- 00:25:41.540 --> 00:25:43.260 align:middle line:90% we should leave it at that. 00:25:43.260 --> 00:25:44.300 align:middle line:90% So thank you very much. 00:25:44.300 --> 00:25:46.765 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:25:46.765 --> 00:25:47.751 align:middle line:90% 00:25:47.751 --> 00:25:48.740 align:middle line:90% Sign books? 00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:51.020 align:middle line:90% Yeah, of course. 00:25:51.020 --> 00:25:53.500 align:middle line:84% I would be delighted to sign your books. 00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:54.000 align:middle line:90%