WEBVTT

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So this image was the
most difficult image

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to get for the book.

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When I called The Getty to
buy the rights to replicate

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the image in the book, they
said, you can't have it.

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And at first I did the thing
that you do, you say, thank

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you, and you hang up.

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And you wait a day
and you call back.

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And so I called
back the next day,

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and someone else
was on the phone.

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And I said I'd like to buy
the rights to this image.

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And she said, no,
you can't have it.

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And I said, why not.

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And she said, well, because
we are an intermediary Fulton

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archives.

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And they said we can't sell
the rights to this image

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because they are afraid
that the people who

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want to buy the rights
to replicate the image

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want to in order to support
what is in the image.

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And, you know, it's that kind
of thing you're on the phone,

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you want what you
want, you know that.

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I want what I want.

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But each word is dropping
into my consciousness one

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word at a time, so
I'm thinking, so they

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want to buy the image
in order to support

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what is in the image.

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And then it dawned on me.

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I am not a white supremacist.

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So I say to her, what
if we sent you the book

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and you sent it on to
them and let them decide?

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And so she said, OK,
she will do that.

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And so that's what happened.

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We sent it to her.

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And this is the lynching
of Thomas Shipp and Abram

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Smith in Marion,
Indiana August 7, 1930.

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And then after a few
weeks I heard back

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and they said, OK,
send us a check.

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And so I did send them
a check and they let

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me reproduce it in the book.

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So once I paid them,
I called them back.

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And I said, um, there
was one other thing.

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And she's like, what?

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No, she didn't actually.

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She didn't say that.

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She said yes.

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I said to her, you
know, actually, I

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want to take out the
men from the photo.

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Is that OK?

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And she was like, oh,
now, you motherfucker,

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you can do whatever you want.

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And I was like, oh, OK.

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So that's what I did.

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So what's in the book
is on the far right.

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Because I'm not interested
in replicating sentimentality

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around the murder
of Black people.

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I am interested in the ways
in which the culture has

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suppressed the culpability
and support of white citizens

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of these kinds of murder.

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So I was just interested
in those people

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in that photo who are really
you people in this room,

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in one way or another.

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Every time you're in a room and
you hear that racist statement

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and you let it stand.

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You know, and a funny thing
happened to my husband

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the other--

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this was about a
year, two years now.

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We lived in Claremont.

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I was teaching at
Pomona College.

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And the woman I play
tennis with is a biologist.

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That's irrelevant information.

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And she is a biologist.

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And, anyway, her husband had
one of those football parties.

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What are those big
weekends where people--

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you know the big-- the big--

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Super Bowl.

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Super Bowl.

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Super Bowl, Super
Bowl Sunday, yeah.

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And so, it was Super Bowl
Sunday and her husband

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invited my husband over
for Super Bowl Sunday.

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And John went.

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And I didn't go.

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I wasn't invited.

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And-- also, I wouldn't
have gone because I had

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things to do other than that.

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And so I'm at home working.

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And it's only been, like,
an hour, and he's back.

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And I said to him,
why are you back?

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What happened?

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And he said, well,
the game started,

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and some guy in the room was
like, look at that nigger.

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But it was actually
kind of interesting

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what happened afterwards
because then I got

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an apology from my friend Nina.

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And I said, why are
you apologizing to me?

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You didn't anything to me.

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She said, yeah, I
know John was upset.

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And then her husband
sent an apology.

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And all the apologies went
back and forth and everything.

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You know, now we're
great friends again.

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Everything's cool.

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But what has always
been interesting to

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me is if my husband had
not been in that room,

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and if her husband had not
known that my husband is married

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to me, would that
comment have stood?

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Probably.

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And so, in that
way, we all know.

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I don't know what happens
when I'm not in the room.

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But my husband is
white, and he knows

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what happens when
I'm not in the room.

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So, through him, I
know what's happening

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when I'm not in the room.

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And so I know that
you all are in rooms

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where this stuff is happening
that shouldn't be happening.

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And in that way, you are
those people in that photo.