WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.292 align:middle line:90% I can start the first question. 00:00:01.292 --> 00:00:03.618 align:middle line:90% So that was the film. 00:00:03.618 --> 00:00:05.410 align:middle line:84% I was explaining to some people earlier on. 00:00:05.410 --> 00:00:08.160 align:middle line:84% A lot of the time, I would make myself scarce when Eliza was 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:12.960 align:middle line:84% meeting these women because I wasn't-- 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.800 align:middle line:90% sorry, I wasn't to be seen. 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:19.770 align:middle line:84% And so there was one situation there. 00:00:19.770 --> 00:00:23.945 align:middle line:84% There was a child being abused by an elderly man. 00:00:23.945 --> 00:00:25.320 align:middle line:84% I was actually waiting in the car 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:27.150 align:middle line:84% while Eliza was doing some interview. 00:00:27.150 --> 00:00:29.325 align:middle line:84% And it just started happening in front of me. 00:00:29.325 --> 00:00:30.450 align:middle line:90% I don't know what that was. 00:00:30.450 --> 00:00:31.930 align:middle line:90% It was quite a long sequence. 00:00:31.930 --> 00:00:33.930 align:middle line:90% I used only 20 seconds of it. 00:00:33.930 --> 00:00:37.410 align:middle line:84% But he cycled away with this young boy. 00:00:37.410 --> 00:00:38.970 align:middle line:90% And the boy tried to run away. 00:00:38.970 --> 00:00:41.060 align:middle line:84% And then he grabbed him again and cycled away. 00:00:41.060 --> 00:00:42.310 align:middle line:90% It might have been the father. 00:00:42.310 --> 00:00:43.810 align:middle line:84% I don't know what the situation was. 00:00:43.810 --> 00:00:48.210 align:middle line:84% But it's an extraordinary place of mystery. 00:00:48.210 --> 00:00:52.650 align:middle line:84% And actually, looking at that now, I'm missing it so much. 00:00:52.650 --> 00:00:54.010 align:middle line:90% But it's a tough place. 00:00:54.010 --> 00:00:57.030 align:middle line:90% And you can see that life is. 00:00:57.030 --> 00:01:01.920 align:middle line:84% And people have to really struggle to survive. 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:07.560 align:middle line:84% And of course, women, I mean, you 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:09.583 align:middle line:84% forget that, after a few days, you 00:01:09.583 --> 00:01:11.250 align:middle line:84% take for granted that you just don't see 00:01:11.250 --> 00:01:12.900 align:middle line:90% women's faces on the street. 00:01:12.900 --> 00:01:14.230 align:middle line:90% In Kabul, you do. 00:01:14.230 --> 00:01:16.050 align:middle line:84% You see the odd brave woman who's 00:01:16.050 --> 00:01:17.550 align:middle line:84% going to an office job or something. 00:01:17.550 --> 00:01:21.150 align:middle line:84% And she'd have her hair covered, but she won't cover her face. 00:01:21.150 --> 00:01:26.100 align:middle line:84% But outside Kabul, main cities, you just don't see that. 00:01:26.100 --> 00:01:29.070 align:middle line:84% So it's just a different culture. 00:01:29.070 --> 00:01:31.292 align:middle line:90% What can I say? 00:01:31.292 --> 00:01:32.500 align:middle line:90% If anyone has any questions-- 00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:34.050 align:middle line:90% I know Fred wants to-- 00:01:34.050 --> 00:01:36.600 align:middle line:84% Just following up on what you said, 00:01:36.600 --> 00:01:40.530 align:middle line:84% I see that the recording of the poem, the film itself, 00:01:40.530 --> 00:01:43.050 align:middle line:90% as an intervention. 00:01:43.050 --> 00:01:46.440 align:middle line:84% Did you have to make a decision that you would never intervene? 00:01:46.440 --> 00:01:50.880 align:middle line:84% Or was there ever a moment where you did intervene? 00:01:50.880 --> 00:01:54.930 align:middle line:84% Well, I certainly didn't want to spoil what Eliza was doing. 00:01:54.930 --> 00:01:57.570 align:middle line:84% And we came to an agreement that she 00:01:57.570 --> 00:02:01.650 align:middle line:84% worked very hard to find somebody 00:02:01.650 --> 00:02:04.560 align:middle line:84% who would be able to talk to her about landays. 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:06.810 align:middle line:84% I mean, the next step would then be to get that person 00:02:06.810 --> 00:02:08.130 align:middle line:90% to recite some landays. 00:02:08.130 --> 00:02:10.420 align:middle line:84% And so it was typical journalist. 00:02:10.420 --> 00:02:11.670 align:middle line:90% You get your foot in the door. 00:02:11.670 --> 00:02:12.870 align:middle line:90% And then you work on it. 00:02:12.870 --> 00:02:15.600 align:middle line:90% And you try and expand it. 00:02:15.600 --> 00:02:17.340 align:middle line:84% At times, we thought we were never 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:21.230 align:middle line:84% going to get this thing done because people would say-- 00:02:21.230 --> 00:02:22.470 align:middle line:90% they would let her in. 00:02:22.470 --> 00:02:23.670 align:middle line:90% And they wouldn't-- 00:02:23.670 --> 00:02:25.310 align:middle line:84% The-- first few days I was there, 00:02:25.310 --> 00:02:27.310 align:middle line:84% the first week, I was stressing because I wasn't 00:02:27.310 --> 00:02:28.510 align:middle line:90% getting pictures of women. 00:02:28.510 --> 00:02:30.240 align:middle line:84% And then I decided in my head actually 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:31.630 align:middle line:84% that was not what I needed to do. 00:02:31.630 --> 00:02:33.420 align:middle line:84% But Eliza, yeah, so I certainly didn't 00:02:33.420 --> 00:02:35.550 align:middle line:84% want to interrupt what she was doing. 00:02:35.550 --> 00:02:38.010 align:middle line:84% A couple of times, I was invited in. 00:02:38.010 --> 00:02:42.300 align:middle line:84% We went to a refugee camp where she convinced 00:02:42.300 --> 00:02:43.920 align:middle line:90% this man who had three wives-- 00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:46.530 align:middle line:84% and the wives were all sitting around him. 00:02:46.530 --> 00:02:47.850 align:middle line:90% And he was a bit of a bragger. 00:02:47.850 --> 00:02:51.360 align:middle line:84% And I think she appealed to his manhood that, of course, 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.430 align:middle line:84% you're going to let the photographer in. 00:02:53.430 --> 00:02:54.240 align:middle line:84% What have you got to worry about? 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:54.948 align:middle line:90% You're a big guy. 00:02:54.948 --> 00:02:57.000 align:middle line:84% And so I found myself in the room. 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.270 align:middle line:84% And what was interesting was she said that these women had been 00:03:00.270 --> 00:03:06.750 align:middle line:84% really brazen and had been really raucous and quite rude 00:03:06.750 --> 00:03:08.680 align:middle line:90% to the husband and to her. 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:15.510 align:middle line:84% And as soon as I walked into the room, they put on the burka 00:03:15.510 --> 00:03:18.460 align:middle line:84% and just sat there mute, which is what you normally see. 00:03:18.460 --> 00:03:20.730 align:middle line:84% You see these women walk around these shadowy figures. 00:03:20.730 --> 00:03:22.603 align:middle line:84% Actually, it's not like that at all. 00:03:22.603 --> 00:03:23.520 align:middle line:90% They're really ballsy. 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:26.880 align:middle line:84% And they run the show a lot of the time. 00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:29.130 align:middle line:84% Of course, they're denied a lot of rights. 00:03:29.130 --> 00:03:31.680 align:middle line:84% But it's not what we think it is. 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:32.802 align:middle line:90% So I got inside. 00:03:32.802 --> 00:03:34.260 align:middle line:84% And I was able to take photographs. 00:03:34.260 --> 00:03:35.635 align:middle line:84% But they weren't very interesting 00:03:35.635 --> 00:03:39.780 align:middle line:84% because they were just these mute, typical representations 00:03:39.780 --> 00:03:41.160 align:middle line:90% of what we see on the street. 00:03:41.160 --> 00:03:44.340 align:middle line:90% So it didn't really do any good. 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:49.440 align:middle line:90% There was one camp of people. 00:03:49.440 --> 00:03:51.480 align:middle line:84% They were a slightly marginalized tribe. 00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:54.622 align:middle line:84% And the young women didn't have their face covered. 00:03:54.622 --> 00:03:55.830 align:middle line:90% I got some pictures of those. 00:03:55.830 --> 00:03:57.640 align:middle line:90% And they're in the book. 00:03:57.640 --> 00:04:00.810 align:middle line:84% So they're in the Poetry Foundation Magazine. 00:04:00.810 --> 00:04:03.925 align:middle line:84% But generally, it's like going to the front line in a war. 00:04:03.925 --> 00:04:05.800 align:middle line:84% You think, I've got to get to the front line. 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:06.780 align:middle line:84% This is where I'm going to get pictures. 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:08.340 align:middle line:84% I'm going to reveal what's going on. 00:04:08.340 --> 00:04:11.370 align:middle line:84% Actually, you get there and it's often very boring. 00:04:11.370 --> 00:04:16.542 align:middle line:84% Or you get pictures of something that sounds, and at the time 00:04:16.542 --> 00:04:19.209 align:middle line:84% was very dangerous and you think is going to be very compelling. 00:04:19.209 --> 00:04:19.950 align:middle line:84% And then you look at it afterwards 00:04:19.950 --> 00:04:21.700 align:middle line:84% and you think, well, if you weren't there, 00:04:21.700 --> 00:04:26.040 align:middle line:84% actually it's not as good as the picture of the boy holding 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:27.120 align:middle line:90% the chicken or whatever. 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.500 align:middle line:90% So it's funny how that works. 00:04:29.500 --> 00:04:32.588 align:middle line:84% The context, when you're doing it, seems so important. 00:04:32.588 --> 00:04:34.380 align:middle line:84% And if you were going just for information, 00:04:34.380 --> 00:04:35.880 align:middle line:84% I was talking to somebody earlier on 00:04:35.880 --> 00:04:38.643 align:middle line:84% and saying the information is very overrated. 00:04:38.643 --> 00:04:40.810 align:middle line:84% The information of that situation is very important. 00:04:40.810 --> 00:04:45.390 align:middle line:84% Here I am in this situation with these women, 00:04:45.390 --> 00:04:47.787 align:middle line:90% three wives of this one man. 00:04:47.787 --> 00:04:49.620 align:middle line:84% And I could have taken a photograph of that. 00:04:49.620 --> 00:04:52.050 align:middle line:84% But then it would have required a huge caption. 00:04:52.050 --> 00:04:53.550 align:middle line:84% And the picture itself wouldn't have 00:04:53.550 --> 00:04:55.980 align:middle line:84% stood alone on itself, whereas other pictures-- 00:04:55.980 --> 00:05:00.140 align:middle line:84% I tend to try to find the picture exists on its own, 00:05:00.140 --> 00:05:02.140 align:middle line:84% and then try and match it with one of the poems. 00:05:02.140 --> 00:05:03.310 align:middle line:84% A lot of the photographs would have 00:05:03.310 --> 00:05:04.518 align:middle line:90% worked with any of the poems. 00:05:04.518 --> 00:05:07.120 align:middle line:84% That was interesting, too, same with the footage. 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:09.093 align:middle line:84% I mean, I shot all that footage pretty much 00:05:09.093 --> 00:05:10.510 align:middle line:84% not knowing what the poem is going 00:05:10.510 --> 00:05:12.640 align:middle line:84% to be because while I was out there filming, 00:05:12.640 --> 00:05:15.220 align:middle line:90% Eliza was in there recording. 00:05:15.220 --> 00:05:19.900 align:middle line:84% And then later, we'd try and make sense of the recording. 00:05:19.900 --> 00:05:24.190 align:middle line:84% Her first task was to get the women to talk about the landays 00:05:24.190 --> 00:05:25.720 align:middle line:90% and to give her landays. 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:28.690 align:middle line:84% And then afterwards, in contemplation 00:05:28.690 --> 00:05:32.200 align:middle line:84% with the interpreter, they would work out what that meant. 00:05:32.200 --> 00:05:35.290 align:middle line:84% What was interesting was that the landays, 00:05:35.290 --> 00:05:38.860 align:middle line:84% from what I can understand of it, they're a series of words. 00:05:38.860 --> 00:05:42.550 align:middle line:84% And they have this form of two lines and 22 syllables. 00:05:42.550 --> 00:05:44.830 align:middle line:84% But it's almost like random words. 00:05:44.830 --> 00:05:46.450 align:middle line:84% The words aren't random, but they're 00:05:46.450 --> 00:05:48.680 align:middle line:90% thrown out in a random way. 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:55.000 align:middle line:84% And then they find their form in the listener's mind. 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:56.560 align:middle line:90% But it's instantaneous. 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.070 align:middle line:84% It's not like it's what's interpreted by each person. 00:06:00.070 --> 00:06:01.540 align:middle line:90% It's not. 00:06:01.540 --> 00:06:06.640 align:middle line:84% The words are thrown out with probably no grammar. 00:06:06.640 --> 00:06:10.240 align:middle line:90% So cat, mat, dog, whatever. 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:12.460 align:middle line:84% But because of the meaning of the words 00:06:12.460 --> 00:06:15.640 align:middle line:84% and because of probably the references 00:06:15.640 --> 00:06:17.960 align:middle line:84% from previous landays, they make sense. 00:06:17.960 --> 00:06:20.770 align:middle line:84% And so when a landay's spoken, as soon 00:06:20.770 --> 00:06:23.010 align:middle line:84% as the people listening hear the series of words, 00:06:23.010 --> 00:06:24.010 align:middle line:90% they immediately get it. 00:06:24.010 --> 00:06:25.760 align:middle line:84% And they laugh or they react to it. 00:06:25.760 --> 00:06:28.210 align:middle line:84% So it's quite extraordinary form. 00:06:28.210 --> 00:06:30.130 align:middle line:84% But she would do that all afterwards 00:06:30.130 --> 00:06:31.547 align:middle line:84% because she didn't have time to be 00:06:31.547 --> 00:06:33.430 align:middle line:84% doing that while the woman was sitting there. 00:06:33.430 --> 00:06:35.080 align:middle line:84% She would be trying to get as much out of this woman as 00:06:35.080 --> 00:06:37.270 align:middle line:84% possible-- where the landay came from, 00:06:37.270 --> 00:06:40.420 align:middle line:84% something about the woman's life. 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:43.025 align:middle line:84% And then also, do you know anyone else that's 00:06:43.025 --> 00:06:44.150 align:middle line:90% going to help us with this? 00:06:44.150 --> 00:06:47.140 align:middle line:84% So she was doing a real investigative job. 00:06:47.140 --> 00:06:49.483 align:middle line:84% So the actual translations will be done later. 00:06:49.483 --> 00:06:51.400 align:middle line:84% So while I was in Afghanistan, I didn't really 00:06:51.400 --> 00:06:53.140 align:middle line:90% hear any of these poems. 00:06:53.140 --> 00:06:55.000 align:middle line:90% I was just out filming life. 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:59.020 align:middle line:84% And then later, I put them together. 00:06:59.020 --> 00:07:02.620 align:middle line:84% So at the magazine too, we'll look at poems or debate poems 00:07:02.620 --> 00:07:03.490 align:middle line:90% sometimes. 00:07:03.490 --> 00:07:04.540 align:middle line:90% It'll come up. 00:07:04.540 --> 00:07:06.430 align:middle line:90% What is this, just word soup? 00:07:06.430 --> 00:07:09.130 align:middle line:84% And are you supposed to-- what does this mean? 00:07:09.130 --> 00:07:10.160 align:middle line:90% Or how does this mean? 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.960 align:middle line:84% And so something that comes up one time at an afternoon 00:07:13.960 --> 00:07:17.020 align:middle line:84% discussion we had with subscribers, 00:07:17.020 --> 00:07:19.000 align:middle line:84% we were talking about a particular poem 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.090 align:middle line:90% and what does it mean. 00:07:20.090 --> 00:07:22.900 align:middle line:84% And someone said, well, I think it can mean 00:07:22.900 --> 00:07:24.650 align:middle line:90% whatever you want it to mean. 00:07:24.650 --> 00:07:25.930 align:middle line:90% This means this to me. 00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:27.070 align:middle line:90% And people agreed. 00:07:27.070 --> 00:07:30.880 align:middle line:84% And I think, up to that point, I agreed with that idea, too. 00:07:30.880 --> 00:07:34.630 align:middle line:84% And someone spoke up who had traveled quite a bit 00:07:34.630 --> 00:07:37.150 align:middle line:84% and worked with many different cultures and their poetry 00:07:37.150 --> 00:07:39.650 align:middle line:84% and chimed in saying, well, you know, 00:07:39.650 --> 00:07:43.070 align:middle line:84% I think that's a very privileged position to have. 00:07:43.070 --> 00:07:43.570 align:middle line:90% And. 00:07:43.570 --> 00:07:46.360 align:middle line:84% To feel like these words can be whatever 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:51.790 align:middle line:84% you want them to be neglects people in places 00:07:51.790 --> 00:07:54.190 align:middle line:84% where these words have very specific meanings. 00:07:54.190 --> 00:07:57.520 align:middle line:84% And it often is a matter of life or death. 00:07:57.520 --> 00:08:00.100 align:middle line:84% And it's funny to hear you describe these poems 00:08:00.100 --> 00:08:04.960 align:middle line:84% and how it does come out as a word soup sort of or just 00:08:04.960 --> 00:08:07.360 align:middle line:84% maybe without this particular sense. 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:12.070 align:middle line:84% But I'm curious to know how your idea of poetry 00:08:12.070 --> 00:08:13.630 align:middle line:84% has changed through this experience 00:08:13.630 --> 00:08:14.915 align:middle line:90% and through this encounter. 00:08:14.915 --> 00:08:16.540 align:middle line:84% Yeah, if you could speak to that a bit. 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:21.310 align:middle line:84% Yeah, not just poetry, but art generally. 00:08:21.310 --> 00:08:23.332 align:middle line:90% Yeah, there is no ambiguity. 00:08:23.332 --> 00:08:24.790 align:middle line:84% I mean, this context is particular. 00:08:24.790 --> 00:08:26.140 align:middle line:90% Obviously, it's dangerous. 00:08:26.140 --> 00:08:28.360 align:middle line:84% And also, most of the people that 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:31.790 align:middle line:84% are writing these or creating these poems are illiterate. 00:08:31.790 --> 00:08:35.320 align:middle line:90% So it's very instantaneous. 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:37.960 align:middle line:90% It's like-- I don't know-- 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:40.059 align:middle line:90% universal, Charlie Chaplin. 00:08:40.059 --> 00:08:40.780 align:middle line:90% Everyone gets it. 00:08:40.780 --> 00:08:41.890 align:middle line:90% Everyone laughs at it. 00:08:41.890 --> 00:08:43.120 align:middle line:90% It's as simple as that. 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.220 align:middle line:90% It's brilliant as that. 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:48.880 align:middle line:84% So I suppose, yes, it is privileged. 00:08:48.880 --> 00:08:51.130 align:middle line:84% I mean, we shouldn't throw away the privilege, though, 00:08:51.130 --> 00:08:53.020 align:middle line:84% because I think that ambiguity is what-- 00:08:53.020 --> 00:08:56.590 align:middle line:84% we have nuances because we have access 00:08:56.590 --> 00:08:58.510 align:middle line:90% to freedom of expression. 00:08:58.510 --> 00:09:02.668 align:middle line:84% And we're able to read other country's literature. 00:09:02.668 --> 00:09:03.460 align:middle line:90% These women aren't. 00:09:03.460 --> 00:09:04.600 align:middle line:90% They can't even read. 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:07.600 align:middle line:84% So we shouldn't overrate that directness either. 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.260 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's wonderful that they're able to do this. 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:14.440 align:middle line:84% But the other side of it, too, is very important, I think. 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:17.140 align:middle line:84% So I think it makes you appreciate maybe what 00:09:17.140 --> 00:09:19.690 align:middle line:84% we have as well, but also appreciate 00:09:19.690 --> 00:09:26.110 align:middle line:84% what they're doing to achieve, in a way, the same effect. 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:31.300 align:middle line:84% I suppose it's all in relation to one's life. 00:09:31.300 --> 00:09:32.350 align:middle line:90% It's relative. 00:09:32.350 --> 00:09:33.400 align:middle line:90% To them, it's that. 00:09:33.400 --> 00:09:34.810 align:middle line:84% To us, it'll be something else because we 00:09:34.810 --> 00:09:36.727 align:middle line:84% don't have to go through what they go through. 00:09:36.727 --> 00:09:40.120 align:middle line:84% It would be very odd if we produced the same art 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:43.148 align:middle line:84% as they did because, in some cases, 00:09:43.148 --> 00:09:44.190 align:middle line:90% they're still living in-- 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:47.448 align:middle line:84% I wouldn't say the Stone Age, but it's very primitive. 00:09:47.448 --> 00:09:48.990 align:middle line:84% And I won't take up all the questions 00:09:48.990 --> 00:09:52.230 align:middle line:84% because I think you all have things to ask Seamus. 00:09:52.230 --> 00:09:55.560 align:middle line:84% But one thing I would like to also hear you talk about 00:09:55.560 --> 00:09:56.670 align:middle line:90% is if you could explain-- 00:09:56.670 --> 00:09:58.680 align:middle line:90% so we released this issue. 00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:01.470 align:middle line:84% And we felt internally, this is something 00:10:01.470 --> 00:10:02.560 align:middle line:90% we need to do more of. 00:10:02.560 --> 00:10:04.300 align:middle line:84% This is what we need to be doing. 00:10:04.300 --> 00:10:06.550 align:middle line:84% And other people are saying, oh, this is so wonderful. 00:10:06.550 --> 00:10:07.600 align:middle line:90% We want more of this. 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.222 align:middle line:84% And so can you tell us a little bit-- 00:10:10.222 --> 00:10:11.430 align:middle line:90% I know it's very complicated. 00:10:11.430 --> 00:10:13.260 align:middle line:84% But how does something like this happen? 00:10:13.260 --> 00:10:15.330 align:middle line:84% What are the practical considerations? 00:10:15.330 --> 00:10:16.980 align:middle line:90% What's the process? 00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:20.697 align:middle line:84% How do you even begin to embark on this sort of journey? 00:10:20.697 --> 00:10:22.530 align:middle line:84% Well, it's interesting the evolution of this 00:10:22.530 --> 00:10:24.210 align:middle line:90% because I came across a book-- 00:10:24.210 --> 00:10:25.920 align:middle line:84% I've been going to Afghanistan since '94. 00:10:25.920 --> 00:10:27.030 align:middle line:90% And I came across a book. 00:10:27.030 --> 00:10:31.020 align:middle line:84% I'd never heard of landays until 2012-- 00:10:31.020 --> 00:10:32.070 align:middle line:90% 2010, actually. 00:10:32.070 --> 00:10:35.550 align:middle line:84% And somebody gave me give me this book that Eliza described, 00:10:35.550 --> 00:10:36.800 align:middle line:90% The Songs of Love and War. 00:10:36.800 --> 00:10:38.800 align:middle line:84% And I couldn't believe what I was seeing. 00:10:38.800 --> 00:10:42.270 align:middle line:84% And so I said to Eliza, look, she and I know Afghanistan. 00:10:42.270 --> 00:10:46.043 align:middle line:84% And we both had decided before this 00:10:46.043 --> 00:10:47.460 align:middle line:84% we'd love to do a project together 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:51.210 align:middle line:84% that really was more than what the mainstream media portrays 00:10:51.210 --> 00:10:53.820 align:middle line:84% Afghanistan as, as we and most journalists 00:10:53.820 --> 00:10:57.698 align:middle line:84% know there's a lot more to it than what we see on the news, 00:10:57.698 --> 00:10:59.490 align:middle line:84% or in newspapers, or even in the magazines. 00:10:59.490 --> 00:11:00.510 align:middle line:90% There's a lot more going on. 00:11:00.510 --> 00:11:02.135 align:middle line:84% But it's very hard to find a story that 00:11:02.135 --> 00:11:03.467 align:middle line:90% really gets under the surface. 00:11:03.467 --> 00:11:04.800 align:middle line:90% And we thought this would do it. 00:11:04.800 --> 00:11:07.620 align:middle line:84% We thought there was so much to this. 00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:10.530 align:middle line:84% But initially, we thought maybe we 00:11:10.530 --> 00:11:13.183 align:middle line:84% could do a story about this poet who 00:11:13.183 --> 00:11:15.600 align:middle line:84% was the guy who collected all these poems from the refugee 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.290 align:middle line:84% camps in the '70s, late '70s, '80s, when the Mujahedeen were 00:11:19.290 --> 00:11:21.090 align:middle line:90% fighting the Russians. 00:11:21.090 --> 00:11:23.160 align:middle line:84% Maybe we could do a story about him. 00:11:23.160 --> 00:11:25.240 align:middle line:84% And then Eliza came across this story 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:26.910 align:middle line:84% about this woman who killed herself. 00:11:26.910 --> 00:11:28.860 align:middle line:84% And we thought that would be a way in 00:11:28.860 --> 00:11:30.270 align:middle line:90% and that would get us there. 00:11:30.270 --> 00:11:33.720 align:middle line:84% And the New York Times commissioned that piece. 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:37.572 align:middle line:84% And then after we did that trip, we 00:11:37.572 --> 00:11:39.030 align:middle line:84% realized there's a lot more to this 00:11:39.030 --> 00:11:42.390 align:middle line:84% than we were doing justice in the story. 00:11:42.390 --> 00:11:43.470 align:middle line:90% We'd love to do more. 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:45.970 align:middle line:84% We had no idea about a book at that stage or a poetry 00:11:45.970 --> 00:11:46.470 align:middle line:90% magazine. 00:11:46.470 --> 00:11:51.390 align:middle line:84% But it's that thing of going back to a place, 00:11:51.390 --> 00:11:54.412 align:middle line:84% and getting to know it, and being able to go back. 00:11:54.412 --> 00:11:55.620 align:middle line:90% And it's about money as well. 00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:57.600 align:middle line:90% It's about support. 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.840 align:middle line:84% In the old days, through her contacts or my contacts, 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:05.550 align:middle line:84% we could have approached a number of media outlets 00:12:05.550 --> 00:12:07.290 align:middle line:84% and got a little bit of money from them 00:12:07.290 --> 00:12:09.748 align:middle line:84% or a little bit of interest from them, maybe not even doing 00:12:09.748 --> 00:12:11.550 align:middle line:84% this story, doing another story, but then 00:12:11.550 --> 00:12:13.800 align:middle line:84% being able to do this on the same trip, which 00:12:13.800 --> 00:12:15.900 align:middle line:84% is the way a lot of work is produced 00:12:15.900 --> 00:12:17.670 align:middle line:90% in these circumstances. 00:12:17.670 --> 00:12:19.537 align:middle line:84% It was amazing that Poetry supported us 00:12:19.537 --> 00:12:20.370 align:middle line:90% in the way they did. 00:12:20.370 --> 00:12:21.990 align:middle line:84% And I have to say that we would never 00:12:21.990 --> 00:12:23.698 align:middle line:84% be able to do it without Poetry Magazine. 00:12:23.698 --> 00:12:25.320 align:middle line:84% It was extraordinary, the support. 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:29.700 align:middle line:84% And then FSG also, because of Eliza's connection with them, 00:12:29.700 --> 00:12:33.700 align:middle line:84% saw the potential and said, we'll back this as well. 00:12:33.700 --> 00:12:35.580 align:middle line:84% So it's about old fashioned journalism, 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.160 align:middle line:84% which unfortunately is hard to do 00:12:38.160 --> 00:12:39.495 align:middle line:90% these days because of funding. 00:12:39.495 --> 00:12:42.153 align:middle line:90% 00:12:42.153 --> 00:12:43.320 align:middle line:90% The internet it's killed it. 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:50.330 align:middle line:90% 00:12:50.330 --> 00:12:54.170 align:middle line:84% In 1976, I was studying one of the other languages 00:12:54.170 --> 00:12:55.820 align:middle line:90% of Afghanistan. 00:12:55.820 --> 00:12:58.760 align:middle line:84% And one of my teachers was a woman from Afghanistan. 00:12:58.760 --> 00:13:01.160 align:middle line:90% And I wondered why-- 00:13:01.160 --> 00:13:03.110 align:middle line:84% Eliza was talking just now, why did 00:13:03.110 --> 00:13:07.290 align:middle line:84% you choose to use the figure of 12 years of war? 00:13:07.290 --> 00:13:07.790 align:middle line:90% Did she? 00:13:07.790 --> 00:13:09.483 align:middle line:84% I think she might have made a mistake. 00:13:09.483 --> 00:13:10.900 align:middle line:84% Oh, she made a mistake then, yeah. 00:13:10.900 --> 00:13:11.830 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:13:11.830 --> 00:13:13.027 align:middle line:90% Yeah, 30 something. 00:13:13.027 --> 00:13:15.110 align:middle line:84% Yeah, we all had this-- when you study a language, 00:13:15.110 --> 00:13:17.030 align:middle line:84% you always want to go to the place. 00:13:17.030 --> 00:13:19.250 align:middle line:84% And it was just so hugely disruptive. 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:25.280 align:middle line:84% And it seems like it's been incredible war that since-- 00:13:25.280 --> 00:13:27.540 align:middle line:90% '79 at least, yeah. 00:13:27.540 --> 00:13:28.040 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:13:28.040 --> 00:13:29.180 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I think she just-- 00:13:29.180 --> 00:13:30.680 align:middle line:84% I wondered if there was a specific-- 00:13:30.680 --> 00:13:33.140 align:middle line:84% Maybe she was thinking of the 12 parallel or 10 parallel. 00:13:33.140 --> 00:13:36.990 align:middle line:84% I mean, our country's intervention there, 00:13:36.990 --> 00:13:39.630 align:middle line:84% but that was just one of a long series. 00:13:39.630 --> 00:13:40.130 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:13:40.130 --> 00:13:42.440 align:middle line:84% Well, I should say our country's more overt-- 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:43.670 align:middle line:90% Overt intervention, yeah. 00:13:43.670 --> 00:13:44.970 align:middle line:90% Yeah, exactly. 00:13:44.970 --> 00:13:45.470 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:13:45.470 --> 00:13:47.968 align:middle line:90% 00:13:47.968 --> 00:13:50.260 align:middle line:84% I did a story for the New York Times magazine actually. 00:13:50.260 --> 00:13:52.240 align:middle line:84% It was the fall of Kabul after 9-11. 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:54.597 align:middle line:84% And I remember at the end the picture editor saying, 00:13:54.597 --> 00:13:55.930 align:middle line:90% OK, now we need just to pay you. 00:13:55.930 --> 00:13:58.870 align:middle line:84% So we're going to pay you, which is normal, 00:13:58.870 --> 00:14:02.110 align:middle line:90% they pay you double for danger. 00:14:02.110 --> 00:14:03.940 align:middle line:90% That's the normal way. 00:14:03.940 --> 00:14:07.880 align:middle line:84% And she said, OK, so you were there for 45 days. 00:14:07.880 --> 00:14:10.510 align:middle line:90% So when did the war begin? 00:14:10.510 --> 00:14:12.160 align:middle line:84% And they paid me for five days of war. 00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:17.260 align:middle line:90% 00:14:17.260 --> 00:14:20.080 align:middle line:90% Over here? 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:23.260 align:middle line:84% Earlier, you said that, when you weren't 00:14:23.260 --> 00:14:25.930 align:middle line:84% able to photograph women and particularly able to photograph 00:14:25.930 --> 00:14:28.660 align:middle line:84% their faces, you made the decision to photograph 00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:30.430 align:middle line:90% what they saw around. 00:14:30.430 --> 00:14:32.710 align:middle line:84% And then when we got to our later discussion 00:14:32.710 --> 00:14:37.330 align:middle line:84% about subjective positions, it occurred to me 00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:40.120 align:middle line:84% to ask you about the gendered nature of your participation 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.160 align:middle line:90% in the project. 00:14:42.160 --> 00:14:44.980 align:middle line:84% I couldn't change my sex, so yeah. 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:47.510 align:middle line:84% Where you were photographing to help 00:14:47.510 --> 00:14:51.500 align:middle line:84% us see what the women were seeing, but, of course, 00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:55.040 align:middle line:84% women and men always see things a little bit differently. 00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:59.440 align:middle line:84% And so I also wondered if you had shown any of the film 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.420 align:middle line:84% or any of the images to the women who 00:15:01.420 --> 00:15:02.750 align:middle line:90% had given you the poems? 00:15:02.750 --> 00:15:04.720 align:middle line:90% No, no. 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:09.250 align:middle line:84% I mean, Eliza at one stage, she met this woman, 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:10.480 align:middle line:90% a young woman poet. 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.225 align:middle line:90% And it's a long story. 00:15:12.225 --> 00:15:13.600 align:middle line:84% But it's in the back of the book. 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.900 align:middle line:84% There's a little chapter on it and a picture of her, 00:15:16.900 --> 00:15:20.500 align:middle line:84% meeting this woman in a hospital park. 00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:24.730 align:middle line:84% And the woman gave her a poem and gave her a scarf. 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:28.960 align:middle line:84% And then Eliza was really hoping to give her a copy of her book. 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:30.580 align:middle line:84% And then she suddenly thought, my God, 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:32.350 align:middle line:84% if I give her a copy of the book and she 00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:33.975 align:middle line:84% goes home and someone sees it, it'll 00:15:33.975 --> 00:15:35.600 align:middle line:84% be like, where'd you get the book from? 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:36.550 align:middle line:90% You've been seeing a man? 00:15:36.550 --> 00:15:37.800 align:middle line:90% It just goes on and on and on. 00:15:37.800 --> 00:15:42.490 align:middle line:84% So these are fleeting meetings and encounters 00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:47.810 align:middle line:84% that you do your best to protect the source. 00:15:47.810 --> 00:15:50.853 align:middle line:90% So no, I haven't. 00:15:50.853 --> 00:15:52.520 align:middle line:84% I haven't had an opportunity to do that. 00:15:52.520 --> 00:15:55.187 align:middle line:84% I mean, maybe Eliza could if she was in that circumstance, sure. 00:15:55.187 --> 00:15:58.450 align:middle line:84% But I think even doing that would then worry them. 00:15:58.450 --> 00:15:59.500 align:middle line:90% Who else has seen this? 00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:01.720 align:middle line:84% And would my husband get to find out? 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:03.340 align:middle line:90% Of course, he won't. 00:16:03.340 --> 00:16:07.150 align:middle line:84% So that way, and the thing about the gender, I think everyone 00:16:07.150 --> 00:16:08.170 align:middle line:90% sees things differently. 00:16:08.170 --> 00:16:12.370 align:middle line:84% But I happen to be the guy who went there and had this idea. 00:16:12.370 --> 00:16:16.180 align:middle line:90% And so sorry. 00:16:16.180 --> 00:16:19.090 align:middle line:90% What can I say? 00:16:19.090 --> 00:16:22.660 align:middle line:84% I think a lot of Western women photographers 00:16:22.660 --> 00:16:25.760 align:middle line:84% have done amazing work in Afghanistan. 00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:28.210 align:middle line:84% I mean, I'm sure you've already seen it. 00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:31.210 align:middle line:84% And the pictures I could never get because, yeah, 00:16:31.210 --> 00:16:32.950 align:middle line:90% so they had the edge there. 00:16:32.950 --> 00:16:39.815 align:middle line:90% 00:16:39.815 --> 00:16:41.190 align:middle line:84% I just wanted to ask the question 00:16:41.190 --> 00:16:43.648 align:middle line:84% about how the film was composed because it's an incredibly, 00:16:43.648 --> 00:16:45.420 align:middle line:90% beautifully composed film. 00:16:45.420 --> 00:16:51.240 align:middle line:84% And it seems to allude to the history of art 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.360 align:middle line:84% and the history of photography as you move through it. 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:56.520 align:middle line:84% And so I'm wondering how you think 00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:01.830 align:middle line:84% of film and the films that have been important to you 00:17:01.830 --> 00:17:03.600 align:middle line:84% as you think about framing your own film. 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.738 align:middle line:90% 00:17:07.738 --> 00:17:08.280 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:17:08.280 --> 00:17:11.460 align:middle line:90% I think it's like photography. 00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:15.270 align:middle line:84% I was never taught photography or film. 00:17:15.270 --> 00:17:17.099 align:middle line:84% So my references are usually things 00:17:17.099 --> 00:17:20.760 align:middle line:84% I've seen, yeah, like films or books, exhibitions. 00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:22.740 align:middle line:90% And I think you have a memory. 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:26.819 align:middle line:90% And you just have that. 00:17:26.819 --> 00:17:28.770 align:middle line:84% And then you work out what it is you like. 00:17:28.770 --> 00:17:31.620 align:middle line:84% And then I think you start mimicking. 00:17:31.620 --> 00:17:33.870 align:middle line:84% You begin by mimicking, I suppose, things you've seen. 00:17:33.870 --> 00:17:35.400 align:middle line:84% And then I think, at a certain point, hopefully 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:36.580 align:middle line:90% you find your own voice. 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:38.160 align:middle line:84% And that voice, I'm sure, is made up 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:40.050 align:middle line:90% of these other references. 00:17:40.050 --> 00:17:44.890 align:middle line:90% 00:17:44.890 --> 00:17:49.180 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I mean, I can't be more-- 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:51.250 align:middle line:84% I mean, I'm conscious of what I like. 00:17:51.250 --> 00:17:56.050 align:middle line:84% But I don't analyze it too much because I don't really want-- 00:17:56.050 --> 00:17:58.540 align:middle line:84% I was doing a project in America I started in 2005. 00:17:58.540 --> 00:18:01.060 align:middle line:84% And it's still just about finished. 00:18:01.060 --> 00:18:03.070 align:middle line:90% I think it might be done. 00:18:03.070 --> 00:18:05.590 align:middle line:84% But I stopped looking at any books 00:18:05.590 --> 00:18:07.280 align:middle line:90% on America, photography books. 00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:10.210 align:middle line:84% I never looked at The Americans by Robert Frank. 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:11.200 align:middle line:90% I'd seen it years ago. 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.180 align:middle line:84% But I very consciously would not look at it 00:18:13.180 --> 00:18:17.788 align:middle line:84% because I just think that what you don't 00:18:17.788 --> 00:18:20.080 align:middle line:84% want to be thinking is second guessing yourself saying, 00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:22.870 align:middle line:84% oh, hang on a minute, I'm doing this because I've seen this. 00:18:22.870 --> 00:18:24.340 align:middle line:84% I'm sure it's true in many cases. 00:18:24.340 --> 00:18:26.380 align:middle line:84% But there's always the opportunity 00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:28.867 align:middle line:90% to do it another way. 00:18:28.867 --> 00:18:30.700 align:middle line:84% And there's the old cliche that everything's 00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:31.700 align:middle line:90% been done before anyway. 00:18:31.700 --> 00:18:37.300 align:middle line:90% But the film was really-- 00:18:37.300 --> 00:18:40.060 align:middle line:90% I make documentaries this way. 00:18:40.060 --> 00:18:42.790 align:middle line:84% I use the camera like I use a stills camera. 00:18:42.790 --> 00:18:43.780 align:middle line:90% It's like reportage. 00:18:43.780 --> 00:18:45.790 align:middle line:90% It's in that way. 00:18:45.790 --> 00:18:48.610 align:middle line:84% And then I put it together cinematically 00:18:48.610 --> 00:18:50.590 align:middle line:90% and hopefully make sense of it. 00:18:50.590 --> 00:18:56.500 align:middle line:84% The landays were great because they allowed me to do that. 00:18:56.500 --> 00:19:04.960 align:middle line:84% And the meaning came from the words, what was being said. 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:06.130 align:middle line:90% And the juxtaposition of it? 00:19:06.130 --> 00:19:07.690 align:middle line:90% Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 00:19:07.690 --> 00:19:09.670 align:middle line:90% I mean, I work with this editor. 00:19:09.670 --> 00:19:13.120 align:middle line:90% We work very closely together. 00:19:13.120 --> 00:19:16.160 align:middle line:90% And it's a lot of that going on. 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.210 align:middle line:90% But it's huge fun, huge fun. 00:19:19.210 --> 00:19:20.680 align:middle line:90% I love it. 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.810 align:middle line:84% We have time for one more question. 00:19:22.810 --> 00:19:25.060 align:middle line:84% And then we'll carry on with informal conversation 00:19:25.060 --> 00:19:26.020 align:middle line:90% at the reception. 00:19:26.020 --> 00:19:29.880 align:middle line:90% 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:30.960 align:middle line:90% Hi, thank you. 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:35.730 align:middle line:84% So I actually have two questions, sorry. 00:19:35.730 --> 00:19:38.190 align:middle line:84% First of all, I wonder if you could give us a sense-- 00:19:38.190 --> 00:19:40.620 align:middle line:84% or if I missed it, I'm trying to get 00:19:40.620 --> 00:19:45.870 align:middle line:84% a sense of how embedded the landays are in the culture. 00:19:45.870 --> 00:19:52.530 align:middle line:84% So is the idea that most or all of Pashtun girls and women 00:19:52.530 --> 00:19:56.280 align:middle line:84% have this repertoire of landays and when they get together 00:19:56.280 --> 00:19:57.690 align:middle line:90% they trade them back and forth? 00:19:57.690 --> 00:20:01.950 align:middle line:84% Or is it a more specialized and unique thing 00:20:01.950 --> 00:20:04.530 align:middle line:84% that only certain women and girls engage in? 00:20:04.530 --> 00:20:07.110 align:middle line:84% And also, the other question was-- 00:20:07.110 --> 00:20:09.300 align:middle line:84% Eliza mentioned that about 40,000 00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:11.800 align:middle line:84% are in circulation at any given time. 00:20:11.800 --> 00:20:15.510 align:middle line:84% So I'm just curious to know, after the person you referenced 00:20:15.510 --> 00:20:20.040 align:middle line:84% who had collected these in the '70s, are there local experts? 00:20:20.040 --> 00:20:21.880 align:middle line:84% Or where does that number come from? 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:22.860 align:middle line:90% How do we know? 00:20:22.860 --> 00:20:24.543 align:middle line:84% Yeah, second question, I don't know 00:20:24.543 --> 00:20:25.710 align:middle line:90% where the number comes from. 00:20:25.710 --> 00:20:28.380 align:middle line:84% But it would definitely be someone 00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:31.350 align:middle line:84% she spoke to and someone she respected. 00:20:31.350 --> 00:20:35.470 align:middle line:84% We met some extraordinary people in Kabul-- 00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:38.640 align:middle line:84% a couple of academics, some journalists. 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.440 align:middle line:84% All of them just absolutely loved landays. 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.000 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's a passion. 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:50.100 align:middle line:84% One guy who was an old communist academic, great guy, 00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:52.410 align:middle line:84% he was very passionate and said he 00:20:52.410 --> 00:20:54.540 align:middle line:84% thought that those were the highest form of art 00:20:54.540 --> 00:20:56.940 align:middle line:84% because these women were illiterate. 00:20:56.940 --> 00:21:02.227 align:middle line:84% They would not have had access to books or education. 00:21:02.227 --> 00:21:03.810 align:middle line:84% They weren't trying to impress anyone. 00:21:03.810 --> 00:21:05.190 align:middle line:84% I mean, they were trying to impress their friends. 00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:06.940 align:middle line:84% But they weren't trying to impress anyone. 00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:09.480 align:middle line:90% They weren't striking a pose. 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.160 align:middle line:84% They weren't doing the latest fashion. 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:12.923 align:middle line:84% It was literally from their heart. 00:21:12.923 --> 00:21:14.340 align:middle line:84% And they were risking their lives. 00:21:14.340 --> 00:21:17.560 align:middle line:84% And they were risking all kinds of stuff to do it. 00:21:17.560 --> 00:21:19.410 align:middle line:84% So for him-- and I kind of agree with him. 00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:21.840 align:middle line:84% It's such a direct line of communication between what 00:21:21.840 --> 00:21:23.640 align:middle line:90% you feel and what you express. 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:27.510 align:middle line:84% I mean, isn't that what we all aspire to? 00:21:27.510 --> 00:21:29.490 align:middle line:90% I mean, that's incredible. 00:21:29.490 --> 00:21:32.673 align:middle line:84% And so that was the second question. 00:21:32.673 --> 00:21:33.840 align:middle line:90% What was the first question? 00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:36.780 align:middle line:84% Oh yeah, I think it's like everything. 00:21:36.780 --> 00:21:38.850 align:middle line:84% It's like if you meet some kids who are into rap. 00:21:38.850 --> 00:21:40.330 align:middle line:84% There'll be some that are better than others, 00:21:40.330 --> 00:21:42.247 align:middle line:84% and then the one guy who doesn't say anything. 00:21:42.247 --> 00:21:45.270 align:middle line:90% So I think it's the same thing. 00:21:45.270 --> 00:21:47.833 align:middle line:84% They do tend to do it at weddings. 00:21:47.833 --> 00:21:49.500 align:middle line:84% And usually, it's done to music as well. 00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.450 align:middle line:90% There's somebody playing a drum. 00:21:51.450 --> 00:21:54.570 align:middle line:84% There's one landay that girl says, 00:21:54.570 --> 00:21:57.390 align:middle line:84% I'll be a [INAUDIBLE] if you'll-- 00:21:57.390 --> 00:21:58.800 align:middle line:90% I'll be testing your drum. 00:21:58.800 --> 00:22:00.810 align:middle line:84% That drum would be referring to this drum 00:22:00.810 --> 00:22:03.585 align:middle line:84% that they beat to keep the time for the landays. 00:22:03.585 --> 00:22:07.950 align:middle line:90% 00:22:07.950 --> 00:22:12.000 align:middle line:84% And what was interesting too is that landays are written 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.220 align:middle line:90% by and largely for women. 00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:18.400 align:middle line:84% And even when men recite them and write them, which is rare, 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.310 align:middle line:84% but they do, it's in the voice of a woman. 00:22:20.310 --> 00:22:21.570 align:middle line:90% They become a woman. 00:22:21.570 --> 00:22:23.280 align:middle line:84% So it's definitely a female domain. 00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:26.430 align:middle line:90% 00:22:26.430 --> 00:22:27.970 align:middle line:90% Seamus, thank you so much. 00:22:27.970 --> 00:22:28.650 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:32.000 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.472 align:middle line:90%